Is it superficial for a woman to not want to date a guy if he doesn’t pay for the first date?

I find myself mainly in agreement with Linkat. This has happened more than once before, I hope she doesn't mind.

The purpose of dating is to lead to a sexual relationship. It isn't dating when I go out to dinner, or to see a show, with friends or family. I don't want to have sex with my friends or my family. It is a date when I go out to dinner with someone with whom I may want to have sex. There is a big difference between the two.

Not every dinner is a date.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

I find myself mainly in agreement with Linkat.

Me too.

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@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

No - it could be she is more traditional.

A note - you should cheap if you ask to go Dutch. If that is the first impression you want on a date then so be it.

I agree with both.

If you go Dutch, and it seriously hurts her financially, brother, you have just had your last date with that lady.

Also, yeah, the guy pays, at least on the first date. It's traditional, which suits me just fine.

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@Dsg1116,

Dsg1116 wrote:

He asks if we can go Dutch. On the first date. Lol and then from that point she no longer wants to see him

I have always thought that dating was stupid. It is like people are engaged in a contract.
I never dated until I found the woman that I wanted to marry. Then, I did all that I could do to please her. It works well.

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The expectation that the man always pays seems obsolete in this new millennium of equality. I think it is naïve to think that this isn't about sex.

Marriage was devised as an economic trade, the woman got financial stability and the man got an exclusive sexual partner and someone to keep his house. And dating used to be about marriage. In this case it makes sense that the man pays. He is showing that he will be a good provider.

We have changed the economics... and yet the expectation that the man pays still remains. I find that curious.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

The purpose of dating is to lead to a sexual relationship.

For you, yes. No one disputes that. There is a type of courtship referred to as "dating" but there are other reasons to make a date with someone.

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It is a date when I go out to dinner with someone with whom I may want to have sex.

It's also a date when I prearrange to have dinner with somebody for other reasons, like simply wishing to know someone better, wanting to break up the monotony of eating alone, discussing personal matters, reconnecting with a long lost friend, treating someone one on a birthday or in celebration of a particular accomplishment.

Quote:

Not every dinner is a date.

Nor is every dinner date for the purpose of assessing sexual availability or pursuing sexual intimacy.

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@hightor,

A date is also a type of Mediterranean fruit. I don't get the point of these word games, but OK.

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@maxdancona,

Different words entirely. At no point has anyone conflated the two distinct meanings of the identically-sounding language units. Why are you trying to confuse the issue? I don't get the point of your word game.

Quote:

The species name dactylifera "date-bearing" comes from the Greek words daktylos (δάκτυλος), which means "date" (also "finger"), and fero (φέρω), which means "I bear". The fruit is known as a date.

Quote:

Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin data, from data (as in data Romae given at Rome), feminine of Latin datus, past participle of dare to give; akin to Latin dos gift, dowry, Greek didonai to give

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@hightor,

Obviously, from the OP, this thread is about a romantic date. This refers to a social function where generally it is assumed at least one party is interested in a sexual relationship. In the OP, our friend is defining clear gender roles in that when a man and a woman are together, the man is expected to pay. These gender roles don't apply to friends meeting, or birthdays or most occasions.

It is interesting to compare romantic dates with other types of social interaction. In many situations the person who pays is the person with more power or higher social status.

A while ago (obviously before this pandemic) I had a lunch with a VP of some company who was interested in hiring me. This woman had all of the status of power, she had nicer clothes than me, drove a much nicer car. She presented herself as someone who had power... and she did.

She paid for lunch.

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@hightor,

I am curious Hightor,

If someone finds themselves without a sexual partner and desires a sexual relationship. what do you advise that they do?

We seem to all agree that the desire for sex is normal and healthy for both men and women. Going on dates is the social ritual that our culture provides for find a sexual relationship.

So what do you do?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I find myself mainly in agreement with Linkat. This has happened more than once before, I hope she doesn't mind.

We agree sometimes and sometimes we don't. No big deal either way - I think this situation depends on your personal experiences and also your values.

One thing was thinking is - this situation could be a woman being superficial but that would only be the case whereas she really just dated the guy to get a free meal or only cared about dating a guy that would shower her with gifts or money rather than simply wanting a relationship.

In most cases though I would venture to guess this is not superficial but more traditional.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The expectation that the man always pays seems obsolete in this new millennium of equality. I think it is naïve to think that this isn't about sex.

Marriage was devised as an economic trade, the woman got financial stability and the man got an exclusive sexual partner and someone to keep his house. And dating used to be about marriage. In this case it makes sense that the man pays. He is showing that he will be a good provider.

We have changed the economics... and yet the expectation that the man pays still remains. I find that curious.

Not always pay - but definitely the first date. I honestly doubt except in the more extreme cases - here in the US - that once you are dating exclusively or in a committed relationship then one pays one time another time the other person pays. Or whoever has money at the time.

They way I did prior - was whoever asked paid. Made sense whoever invited the other person would pay.

The one exception - if I did ask a man out on a date even if it was a first I would pay. Now I would be more impressed after I grabbed the bill if he took it from me and paid.

But yeah if a guy invited me out for a date I would expect him to pay -- otherwise don't ask me out. Or do something different that costs little or no money. One of my better dates was a hike up a mountain - at the top he pulled out a blanket, some lunch and a bottle of wine (it wasn't a taxing hike so the wine didn't cause a problem on the hike back down).

1 Reply

@Linkat,

Quote:

The one exception - if I did ask a man out on a date even if it was a first I would pay. Now I would be more impressed after I grabbed the bill if he took it from me and paid.

By the way... this is a minefield for a single man.

Some women are offended if you grab the bill. Other women are offended if you don't. On a first date, it is impossible to know which it is Wink

.

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@maxdancona,

I think the issue most are having with what you are saying as you are defining this as a sexual relationship. For most people they simply define this as a relationship. The sexual part is not the highest priority. If you were simply wanting a sexual relationship - you don't need to date them. You just want to have sex then just have sex -- this is the sound of what you are writing. It would be dumb to waste time and money on dinner if all you are after is sex. You can get that without dinner.

The overall idea of dating is going out to get to know another person. The end result may have sex involved or it may not. The objective is to spend time with another person with the goal to meet someone you are compatible with and attracted to. The larger goal is a relationship and for many marriage - sex is typically part of that relationship or in the case of some couples - sex comes after the commitment of marriage.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

If someone finds themselves without a sexual partner and desires a sexual relationship. what do you advise that they do?

In such a case I would suggest they look around for someone like you:

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If I pay for the date, I expect sex afterwards.

Very transactional, expectations fulfilled.

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We seem to all agree that the desire for sex is normal and healthy for both men and women.

Whether the desire is healthy or not really depends on what one wants in particular; many desires are unhealthy and some are not considered normal.

Quote:

So what do you do?

Hang around with interesting people who laugh a lot, get to know them better, engage in conversation or pastimes of mutual interest, and keep an eye open for changes in the chemistry of the friendship. The one thing I don't do is invite them to dinner and pay for it with the expectation that sexual activity will ensue.

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@Linkat,

Yes, that is the issue Linkat. People are pretending that sex isn't a key part of a dating. I am pushing the point.

Repressing the role of sexuality in dating relationships is a foolish pretext. It is part of our cultural belief that the desire for sex is a bad thing that started with our Puritan roots and has remained. My main arguments here are honesty and sex postivity.

Sex is pretty damn important in a romantic relationship (for most people). We not only treat our sexual partners differently than we do any other relationships, we also have rules about exclusivity. A romantic or sexual relationship is different than any other type of relationship.

I agree with you that a romantic relationship is about more than sex (although from personal experience the sex is awfully important). In a long-term sexual relationship there is an intimate emotional bond, and time spent together, and a sharing of family and friends and community. These are all parts of a sexual relationship that aren't the same in any other type of relationship.

Yes, you have identified the issue. I am arguing

1) Sex and the desire for sex is a normal healthy part of being a human adult.

2) This strange cultural ritual with strictly defined gender roles that involves a man buying dinner and gifts for a woman (who accepts them) is about initiating a sexual relationship.

3) Our society wants sex, but has decided that we all have to pretend we don't. This makes relationships more difficult because people feel social pressure to not talk openly about what they really want or need.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

3) Our society wants sex, but has decided that we all have to pretend we don't. This makes relationships more difficult because people feel social pressure to not talk openly about what they really want or need.

I disagree with this - not necessarily - not everyone wants sex. It is a normal urge but there are actually people who do not have this urge. There are many people who classify as asexual.

1 Reply

@Linkat,

I accept that Linkat. Maybe I should change that to "Many people in our society ....".

I would hope that anyone who is asexual would let me know on the first date (if not before). I have zero interest in a romantic asexual relationship. That wouldn't be fair to me or them. I am not going to pay for expensive dinners to court someone who is asexual.

I believe the most people who I have dated understand the ritual the same way I do. If someone is not interested in a possible sexual relationship they shouldn't play the game.

As I have said, I have learned over the years to be direct. I now have no problem expressing what I want from any relationship. In a romantic relationship this includes sex (which is rather important to me). Recently what I want involves more of a commitment and emotional attachment, but that depends on my current stage of life.

Of course a sexual relationship involves more than sex. In practice, I start having sex pretty soon (after a few dates) after I start dating someone. Sometimes a longer term, more meaningful relationship ensues. I don't like playing games.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

Maybe I should change that to "Many people in our society ....".

Bingo!

I've noticed that you tend to use stereotypes and generalizations a lot; most of my disagreements with you follow from this manner of expression.

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Is it superficial for a woman to not want to date a guy if he doesn’t pay for the first date?

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