Does life have no meaning without religion?

diagknowz wrote:

coluber2001 wrote:
Here is what ultimately happens when you depend on other people for meaning in your life:

"Aschenblume".... Ash flower.....Hmmnnn, interesting word; very a propos of what happened to a whole nation when they followed after a false Messiah. The flower of civilization, Germany, turned to cinders.

But that aside, Coluber: please elaborate on what you mean. (I myself agree that depending on other people for meaning in your life is ultimately futile and disappointing; God is the only one.)

This work of art covers one wall in an otherwise empty large room. It's 25 feet wide and made of paint, clay, ash, and earth with a dried-out, dead giant sunflower hanging down the middle. As a lot of art does, its direct impact strikes you before understanding.

And what is a true Messiah, diagknowz? Nobody follows a false Mesiah; they all believe their Messiah is the true one. They have no doubts. How many people believe fanactically in a god as described by others? When an abstract idea becomes endowed with an objective reality and new generations are indoctrinated with that idea it sometimes, many times, becomes more important than the concrete universe. That is, god may attain a separate objective reality instead of being a word rarely used to describe a divine subjective experience.

Nationalism, especially when reinforced by religion, easily becomes agressive militarism. Nationalism and religion are very similar, differing only in content, and both have caused agressive mass movements; perhaps it's inevitable.

It's happened over and over again; the examples in history are plentiful, and the history books are full of nationalistic wars fueled by second-hand religion. This country is in the midst of it now. I hear "good nationalism" and "bad nationalism." When an abstract idea, whether a god or a nation, attains the status of a "separate reality" egos have something larger to identify with and then become fanactical.

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digiknows

diagknowz wrote:

puffthemajicdragonallday wrote:
Im really interested to see if you can answer to my satisfaction, because so far, you haven't and I know I can't.

i believe it would take a tomb of suppositions and lies

Hmmmnnn, Puff, why did I figure as much? (BTW, pun-junkie that I am, I got a kick out of your pun---"tomb" ---even tho I disagree.) Just to make sure I understand you correctly: when you say "so far, you haven't," are you referring to my posts just at this thread, or are you referring to various posts of mine here at A2K?

um, yeah, just this thread here, i havent taken the time to go and read all your posts... yet.

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With religious drivel absent from my life, life has abundant meaning and direction. I get to be both leader and follower. On a particularly good day I get to be Mr. God and do many wondrous things. On other days I enjoy following the crowd and sightseeing. So many things to do and see.

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Diag: "I myself agree that depending on other people for meaning in your life is ultimately futile and disappointing; God is the only one."

Coluber: "When an abstract idea becomes endowed with an objective reality and new generations are indoctrinated with that idea it sometimes, many times, becomes more important than the concrete universe. That is, god may attain a separate objective reality instead of being a word rarely used to describe a divine subjective experience."

Considering the above statements. I agree with Diag that we cannot depend on others for what may be called spiritual meaning. But dependence on the idea of God is still dependence on an Other. You can only depend on yourself. As the Buddha put it, "Be a lantern unto yourself."
I agree, as usual, with Coluber's thinking on matters spiritual. All ideas, because they are abstractions, have an unreality opposed to the reality of concrete experience. To me, "God", (Brahman, Dharma, Ultimate Reality, etc.), has nothing to do with abstract theories or understanding (intellectual theology misses the point). God or Ultimate Reality is essentially one's unthinking, concrete ordinary and passing immediate experience (For me, God is an aesthetic rather than an intellectual phenomenon). So, in a sense Diag is right. If we, i.e., our experiences, are concrete reality--and that's undeniable--we are God (not a bunch of individual gods, just a unitary God). And THAT God, Diag, we can depend upon. The trick is to learn how.

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coluber2001 wrote:

When an abstract idea becomes endowed with an objective reality and new generations are indoctrinated with that idea it sometimes, many times, becomes more important than the concrete universe.

I hear you, coluber! That is called idolatry.

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What is a true Messiah, diagknowz? Nobody follows a false Mesiah; they all believe their Messiah is the true one.

Caution: this could lead to the need for a new thread, bec. it gets us off-topic. But, I'll say this much here: The True Messiah is not a mere mortal, and He's perfect in character. All the earthly ones are fallible (that's putting it mildly).

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Nationalism, especially when reinforced by religion, easily becomes agressive militarism.

Nationalism, when it's jingoism, is indeed pernicious. But we need to distinguish between nationalism as ersatz-religion (that which resides in people's psyche) vs. the objective fact of nationalism in the sense of national sovereignty. THEN nationalism is not automatically suspect.

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Nationalism and religion are very similar, differing only in content, and both have caused agressive mass movements; perhaps it's inevitable.

Not necessarily: For example, it would seem to me that Buddhism would hardly qualify. And besides, religion per se doesn't automatically cause "aggressive" mass movements (just look at the Mennonites or the Amish); rather, fanaticism does.

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When an abstract idea, whether a god or a nation, attains the status of a "separate reality" egos have something larger to identify with and then become fanactical.

There are those of us who'd see God as more than merely an idea (but again, that gets us into a separate thread). But I would agree that it is contemptible to use God as an amulet---a mascot---for one's war. I cringe when I see a sticker that says "God. Country. Family," not bec. any of those 3 individually causes me problems, but there's something about the clustering of them as a trinity that is disturbing.

JL wrote:

Quote:

If we, i.e., our experiences, are concrete reality--and that's undeniable--we are God (not a bunch of individual gods, just a unitary God) And THAT God, Diag, we can depend upon.

How does that equation work? In other words, yes, I would agree that our experiences are concrete reality (as opposed to mere illusion), but how do we jump from that to "we are God"? And I'm also at a loss as to how we can "depend upon" that putative god when we are so fallible? (One of my favorite illustrations of that is Shirley Jackson's short story, "The Lottery.")

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I can't speak for someone else, but because of time and place that I was born to which family affects how I think and also my own thinking form to the relevance to my surroundings. So how do I form what is meaningful is not always the same as the next individual. When I think clearly I like to say I enjoy life while when depress I find all things meaningless. You could say ah "you're weak!" may be I am, maybe I'm not but I'm here and I exist till then might as well seek enjoy be a joy to others and all there is under the sun until I can't take it anymore right? There is hope for the living till death do us part!

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@JLNobody,

Quote:

Considering the above statements. I agree with Diag that we cannot depend on others for what may be called spiritual meaning. But dependence on the idea of God is still dependence on an Other. You can only depend on yourself. As the Buddha put it, "Be a lantern unto yourself."

Hi JL, I think that 'God' is in your head, but that what's in your head can be modified by others, should you choose to let it be modified by others.

...ie. Belief in God doesn't necessarily involve dependence on another.

I've also seen people who believe their subconscious is God...which amounts to the same thing.

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@vikorr,

Yes, God, insofar as He is no more than a BELIEF, is no more than than an idea "in my head" (but of course the location of experience is another problem).
This, however, refers only to the IDEA of "God". But when you LOOK very carefully at your immediate experience (reality's "evidence" so to speak)--which is what meditation is--you may get glimpses of something that you may want to describe as divine. But this is less than a grand object you may be tempted to call God than it is a sense of what you are in the world, a matter of locating you in Reality. It is in fact a redefinition of you. Are you something apart from and surrounded by the world or are you an actual aspect of It? It's a matter of relationship. This something is far more than an idea; it is in fact what Buddhists and Taoists call profoundly real but undefinable, i.e., ineffable. It is Ultimate or General Reality of which we experience only its particular manifestations.
Pardon my pomposity--it's the subject matter.

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@JLNobody,

Quote:

Pardon my pomposity--it's the subject matter.

I didn't find it pompous at all. In fact I agree with you.

I will also note that there is a 'group energy' that is shared between people, and the stronger the 'feeling' in each individual, the stronger the group energy.

This shared energy is most obvious in mobs/riots/lynchings. But it's also obvious in religions (one of the reasons they still exist).

Around 20 years ago, I used to belong to a church. But being who I naturally am, I was very curious about what different branches of christianity believed. I accepted an invitiation to a Jehovahs Witness church once (If I remember right, which I may not, it was meant to be the holiest day of thier year, when new people get admitted to the 144,000 or some such)...and when I walked in, it was like nothing I'd previously expericenced - I can tell you it actually felt 'holy' and was by far the 'holiest' feeling I had ever felt. Now by this time I already understood some about 'group energy' and understood what I was actually experiencing, but it was still disturbing for it's sheer strength.

I'm guessing these sorts of experiences are particularly strong in cults.

And you can even see it at play in team sports...just as you can see individual belief/energy at play in individual sports (elite tennis is fascinating for this).

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@Badboy,

Part of an ant's life means working hard for the colony. This is a meaning that I can see, even though I am not an ant.

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@demonhunter,

Since we are talking about "meaning", let me assure you that the ant does not share your meaning. Wink

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@2BorNot2B,

So, do you have religion in your life?

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@JLNobody,

Well said. Indeed, meaning is something that can be possessed without understanding.

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If religionists say that life has no meaning without religion, they are telling us simply that the atheistic life itself is meaningless. I agree that there is no meaning other than what we create; meaning is not intrinsic to the world; it is what culture is about. It's why all societies are culture-generating and maintaining communities. But I do not consider theology to be the only basis for our most fundamental meanings. I turn to philosophy and art for that.

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Does life have no meaning without religion?

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