What's wrong with the Arab world?

"The post-colonialism issue is something I've had in the back of my mind but I'm not well-armed for that one so will have to come back to it."


My first posted link is very interesting on it, FD.

" I it getting better or worse for women in the Arab countries?"

Damned if I know - and recall that - in a country like Iran - where Britain/USA installed a pro-American/British dictator in place of the properly elected leader (who was threatening their interests) and who forced a lot of westernisation on the country, for revolutionary women as well as men, embracing a fierce form of Idslamic fundamentalism became a revolutionary act. Many women leaders of the Iran revolution embraced the chador, for instance - so it ain't all that simple.


I personally do not think that while islamic fundamentalism is on the rise, that life for women cab get better anywhere under their control. (As women's rights are also targeted by fundy christians as well)

But Morocco, for instance, has gone against this flow - and even Saudi Arabia - which I understand as the worst non-African place for women (I am eminently correctable re this) is beginning to look at improving a few things for women - now, as I see it, that the US is pressuring them more to do so, having decided recently that democracy and human rights might be an effective anti-terror weapon - rather than just propping up bastard regimes like that of the Saudis with little pressure for human rights reform. That is hopeful, I think.


The article I linked to in my first linky post discusses the sad fact that a number of regimes have become more repressive re, for example, women, in an attempt to mollify the islamic fundamentalist terrorists in their own countries - Egypt (which was pretty damned bad anyway in lots of ways) is an example of this.


Sorry I posted a damned novel, BTW - it was very late, and I had that stuff from previous researches, and I couldn't be bothered editing it so late!!!!!!!


RAWA is very interesting on Afghanistan for anyone who does not know about it already.

http://www.rawa.org/

Here is a terrifying lst of Taliban horrors:

http://www.rawa.org/recent2.htm

I had not yet read this article by Friedman, but as always I agree.

He says the same things I say--only in a way people don't mind so much.

-----an excerpt-----
Islam has a long tradition of tolerating other religions, but only on the basis of the supremacy of Islam, not equality with Islam. Islam's self-identity is that it is the authentic and ideal expression of monotheism. Muslims are raised with the view that Islam is God 3.0, Christianity is God 2.0, Judaism is God 1.0, and Hinduism is God 0.0.

Part of what seems to be going on with these young Muslim males is that they are, on the one hand, tempted by Western society, and ashamed of being tempted. On the other hand, they are humiliated by Western society because while Sunni Islamic civilization is supposed to be superior, its decision to ban the reform and reinterpretation of Islam since the 12th century has choked the spirit of innovation out of Muslim lands, and left the Islamic world less powerful, less economically developed, less technically advanced than God 2.0, 1.0 and 0.0.

----------
...which means Islamists are schizophrenic and impotent, and that Islam is what choked off Arab civilization.

We keep blowing it up

They were fucked up LONG before we thought about blowing it up.

Lash, Arabs are stubburn. I worked for one.Dont tell anyone I told you that

<Surely you mean that particular Arab is stubborn. My contribution to flexible Arabs.>

He told me Arabs are very stubborn.Someone killed someone else a long time ago that created two sides and they wont let it go.I forget the details but it has a lot to do with it and there stubborn

We have that type in the South as well. You may have heard of them. One named Hatfield, one, McCoy... Talk about holding a grudge.

<heh>

whose that

They shot at each other for 30 years.

Hog stealin', daughter stealin', this war had everything.

The first hint of animosity between the Hatfields and McCoys occurred in the fall of 1878 on the Kentucky side of the Tug Fork. This was a time when the Tug Valley was one of the most remote and isolated valleys in the United States; there were no railroads, no coal mines, and no villages or towns. When Randolph McCoy accused Floyd Hatfield of stealing his hog, it was a very serious offense; hogs were extremely valuable to the farming economy of the valley and court records indicate that any kind of theft was very rare. For the most part, an atmosphere of trust prevailed among neighbors up and down the hollows. But when Randolph McCoy took his complaint to the local judge and that judge took the trouble to assemble a jury evenly divided between Hatfields and McCoys it is obvious that trouble already existed between these two families.

Although the historical record is silent on the specific origins of the trouble, it seems to have been related to the market for timber. In the period following the Civil War, America was industrializing at a rapid rate and the high quality hardwoods of the Southern Appalachians were in great demand. In this brief period before large timber corporations were operating in the Tug Valley, local farmers cut and marketed timber. In this endeavor the branch of the Hatfield family headed by William Anderson "Devil Anse" Hatfield had been more successful than any other family in the Tug Valley. Not only were the Hatfields financially successful, they liked to brag about it, thus causing resentment among their neighbors. Randolph McCoy and his family were especially irritated because their own efforts to profit from the timber market had ended in disaster.

Whatever the specific grievances, it is significant that the McCoys attempted to resolve them through the legal system, not with guns and violence as Appalachian stereotypes would suggest. When the court ruled against Randolph McCoy he accepted the verdict but bad feelings festered over the next four years, especially when Devil Anse's son, Johnse, romanced and impregnated but did not marry Randolph McCoy's daughter Roseanna. The peak of hostilities came when three of Roseanna's brothers attacked and killed Ellison Hatfield on election day in 1882. Because the Tug Fork of the Big Sandy River is the boundary between Kentucky and West Virginia and and jurisdiction was unclear, the legal system, for the first time in the feud, broke down. Devil Anse retaliated for the killing of his brother by executing, without trial, the three sons of Randolph McCoy near present day Matewan, West Virginia.

For five years after this shocking incident, things were quiet in the Tug Valley. No newspaper anywhere reported the feud and most residents fervently wished to forget about it. But developments outside the Tug Valley mandated otherwise. The Norfolk and Western Railroad Company announced plans to build a line linking Virginia with the Ohio River to run right through the Tug Valley. This would allow the large scale exploitation of the high quality coal seams known to exist in the region. The Tug Valley was about to become the focus of the economic modernization and development which had bypassed it for so long; there were huge profits to be made in land, timber, and coal.

In this new political and economic climate, the Hatfield-McCoy feud was revived by a Pikeville lawyer named Perry Cline. Cline was a distant cousin of Randolph McCoy who had grown up in the Tug Valley, a neighbor of Devil Anse Hatfield. As a young man he had fought a protracted legal battle with Devil Anse over five thousand acres of land along Grapevine Creek, West Virginia. In and out of court settlement Cline had lost the five thousand acres to Devil Anse, land that was now skyrocketing in value. In 1887 Cline used his influence with the leading citizens of Pikeville and the Governor of Kentucky to have the five year old murder indictments against the Hatfields reissued and to have an extradition process started to bring them to trial in Kentucky. Not satisfied, however, with the slowness of the legal process, Cline recruited "Bad" Frank Phillips who organized a posse, crossed the Tug Fork into West Virginia and captured nine Hatfield supporters. This entailed several quasi-military skirmishes along Grapevine Creek and an attempt by the Hatfields to eliminate Randolph McCoy on January 1, 1888. This action resulted in the death of two of Randolph McCoy's children and the destruction of their home on Blackberry Fork, Kentucky, by fire.

This was no longer family violence but warfare between Kentucky and West Virginia. The Governor of West Virginia, E. Willis Wilson, accused Kentucky of violating the extradition process and appealed the matter to the Supreme Court of the United States., In May of 1889, the Supreme Court decided against West Virginia; the nine Hatfields would be tried in Pikeville. Although this ruling intensified the efforts of many private detectives to hunt down Devil Anse, the Hatfield leader was never jailed or tried. Wisely, he retreated. Selling the Grapevine Creek lands he moved his family away from the valley to Main Island Creek, near Sarah Ann, West Virginia where a life size statue marking his grave can now be seen.

By 1892. the railroad through the Tug Valley was completed and coal began to be shipped out. The towns of Williamson and Matewan sprang up along the West Virginia bank of the Tug Fork. The feud was over. (It had lasted 12 years and cost 12 lives.) But the violence that marked the beginning of economic modernization was to continue and even intensify as mountain farmers became coal miners who clashed repeatedly with owners in a conflict which culminated in the bloody coal mine wars of the 1920s.

Holy crap Lash, I read slower then I type.I,ll tell you what I think when I,m done.why you make Amigo read so much.Amigos A man of many actions and few words :wink:

Good story Lash,your right sounds alot like the arabs and the shieks.

Muslims protest UK suicide bombings
Muslim leaders in call for action
BBC
7/15/05

Britain's top Muslims have branded the London suicide bombings "utterly criminal, totally reprehensible, and absolutely un-Islamic".
A joint statement of condemnation came as 22 leaders and scholars met at the Islamic Cultural Centre, in London.

But Britain's highest ranking Asian police officer, Tarique Ghaffur, says Muslims and their leaders must do more than just condemn the bombings.

Bomber Hasib Mir Hussain's family said on Friday they were "devastated".

Police in Egypt arrested chemistry student Magdi Mahmoud al-Nashar, 33, wanted in connection with the bombings.

'Concrete steps'

At the meeting in London, Muslim leaders said there could never be any excuse for taking an innocent life, it said.

Earlier, the head of the Muslim Council of Britain said he wanted "concrete steps" to make sure such atrocities were never repeated.

Sir Iqbal Sacranie, met Islamic and community leaders in Leeds, where three of the bombers were from.

The statement said everyone must confront the problems of Islamophobia, racism, unemployment, economic depravation and social exclusion.

"Islam prohibits both anger and desperation. Anger and desperation are haram (forbidden) and may lead to some people being targeted by people with a sinister and violent agenda.

"There is, therefore, a great deal of positive work to be done with everyone in our own and wider community in order to channel the energy and talent of our youth, particularly into constructive avenues, serving God and society for the common good.

"The youth need understanding, not bashing."

The pursuit of justice for the victims of last week's attacks is an obligation under the faith of Islam.
Muslim leaders' statement

Of the Muslim stance on suicide bombing, the leaders said: "There can never be any excuse for taking an innocent life.

"The Koran clearly declares that killing an innocent person was tantamount to killing all mankind and likewise saving a single life was as if one had saved the life of all mankind.

"This is both a principle and a command ... Those who carried out the bombing, the statement said: "Should in no sense be regarded as martyrs.

Both Muslims and non-Muslims should help bring the people behind the bombing to justice, it said.

"The pursuit of justice for the victims of last week's attacks is an obligation under the faith of Islam."

Organised crime

In his only interview on the attacks, Mr Ghaffur, the Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner, urged Muslims and their leaders to inform on potential terrorists and their supporters.

The police would protect informers, using the lessons learned from tackling serious and organised crime, the head of the Met's serious crimes directorate added.

They would have to engage better with minorities - but the minorities would have to take the first step, he said.

An air of radicalism had been building up among a minority of Muslims, Mr Ghaffur added.

But the London attacks had been the worst case scenario for Britain and its Muslims.

'Shocked state'

Earlier on Friday, Sir Iqbal Sacranie was reported to have met relatives of suicide bomber Mohammad Sidique Khan in Dewsbury.

He spoke to a number of groups in Leeds and said it was important to listen to the concerns of Muslims in the area.

"They are all in a state of shock, as we are," he said.

HAVE YOUR SAY

Mutual respect between religions is the way forward, which can only be ascertained by allaying fears and listening to the concerns of local people, Eddie Espie, Cookstown

Sir Iqbal said that steps had to be taken within the UK's Muslim community.

He said: "The community across the country condemns such activities but beyond that, what have we been doing?"

His comments came as Met Police commissioner Sir Ian Blair met Muslim leaders and said police would work with the community.

'Evil influence'

Police have now turned their attention to finding those who may have helped the bombers carry out last Thursday's attacks - in which 55 people died, including three bombers.

They know three of the bombers were from West Yorkshire - Hussain, 18, of Holbeck, Leeds; Shehzad Tanweer, 22, of Beeston, Leeds, and Mohammad Sidique Khan, 30, of Dewsbury - and are searching their homes.

They are also searching the home of the man they believe is the fourth bomber, Lindsey Germaine, a Jamaican-born man who lived in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire.

British police are searching a house in Leeds linked to the Mr al-Nashar, but have not formally named him as a suspect in their investigation.

'Loving young man'

Mr al-Nashar denied having any role in the attacks and said he was on holiday, Egypt's Interior Ministry said.

He had told investigators all his belongings remained in the UK and he planned to return there, the ministry said.

The family of Hasib Hussain said in a statement their son was "a loving and normal young man who gave us no concern".


"Our thoughts are with all the bereaved families and we have to live ourselves with the loss of our son in these difficult circumstances.

"We had no knowledge of his activities and had we done, we would have done everything in our power to stop him," the statement said.

In other developments Friday:

Forty-one bomb victims have been identified and 31 named.

The first funeral for one of the victims took place. Shahara Islam, 20, from Plaistow, east London, was buried at a private service.

The government plans new criminal offences of providing or receiving training in the use of hazardous substances; of acts preparatory to terrorism; and of inciting terrorism indirectly, Home Office minister Hazel Blears said.

It emerged bomber Mohammad Sadique Khan, a teacher, met MPs Hilary Benn and Jon Trickett during his school's trip to the Palace of Westminster in July 2004.

Victoria Line tube trains began to call at Kings Cross for the first time since the bombings.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/4684885.stm

Published: 2005/07/16 09:53:21 GMT

<sigh of relief>

That was like medicine.

Blair and the legitimate Islamic community (heard separate and multiple reports) have set strong, serious plans to fight this.

I hope they work.

To many foreigners,like california

The US is 99% foreigners.

That's interesting

Scholars hit back at 'evil' bombers
Scholars hit back at 'evil' bombers
Lecturers tour mosques to win over youth
Martin Wainwright
Friday July 29, 2005
The Guardian UK

Qur'anic scholars started a tour of Muslim communities in Britain yesterday to underline their unequivocal horror at suicide bombings and terror attacks. Using texts from both the Qur'an and 1,200 years of Islamic jurisprudence, they will speak in Bradford, Birmingham, Sheffield and London after an initial meeting in Leeds where three of the July 7 bombers lived.

Seven lecturers are addressing open meetings in English, Arabic and Somali in a programme entitled Islam's War on Terror, backed by posters and leaflets which describe suicide bombers as "perpetrators of evil".

"We have been arguing this case for many years, with regard to such bombings overseas, including in Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt," said Asfal Choudhary, one of the organisers of the opening meeting in Leeds. "But now there is all the more need for the voice of truth to be heard."

More than 150 people listened to 90 minutes of closely argued reasoning at the Pakistan community centre in Harehills, Leeds, where the attacks were condemned as contrary to every principle of Islam. Abu Khadeejah Abdul-Whaid, a scholar from Birmingham, accused radical clerics such as Abu Hamza, formerly of the Finsbury Park mosque in London, of "poisoning young minds" with an entirely false version of the religion.

He deplored the combination of human rights laws and constant media attention which gave exiled radicals in Britain a platform to "preach evil" for more than a decade and commit acts absolutely abhorrent to Islam such as circulating videos of terrorist beheadings and other atrocities. Twisting of the concept of jihad had led to grandiose visions of "Islamic empires" and the right to kill so-called "apostates" (disloyal Muslims) which were nowhere supported in the Qur'an.

"I become a target. You become a target," he said. "The terrorists make no distinctions and are absolutely indiscriminate. It is the most disgraceful of crimes."

A simplistic anti-American feeling had also led people to claim sectarian terrorists in Iraq, or even Saddam Hussein, as Muslim or Arab heroes when they were nothing of the sort.

He also called on mosques and communities to address the problem of disaffected Muslim youth in Britain. He told the meeting: "They have a burden of personal baggage - confusion about their culture, identity and religion - and we must make it clear that we understand this and care about it. We must get out on to the streets and speak to them on their level. Because if we do not, Hamza and Bin Laden will."

The meeting also discussed the issue of raising the level of understanding of Islam in British mosques, and the effects of a lack of intellectual training - and also experience of the west - among some imams recruited from overseas. Abu Khadeejah said that it was a cause for concern that of 105 mosques in Birmingham, only one conducts Friday sermons in English.

"Our mosques should have more contact with all communities and that is a handicap," he said. "There is a danger that we spend too much time discussing foreign politics instead of addressing the problems of Muslims here."

The message was well-received but organisers admitted that it was not a forum likely to attract disaffected youth. "There were very few here," said one, "and they left early."

U.S. Muslims issue anti-terrorism 'fatwa'
U.S. Muslims issue anti-terrorism 'fatwa'
By Romney Willson & additional reporting by Caroline Drees
Thu Jul 28, 1:35 PM ET

Top U.S. Muslim scholars issued a "fatwa," or religious edict, against terrorism on Thursday and called on Muslims to help authorities fight the scourge of militant violence.

The fatwa was part of efforts by U.S. Muslims to counter perceived links between Islam and terrorism and avert any negative backlash after this month's bombings by suspected Islamic extremists in London and Egypt.

"Having our religious scholars side by side with our community leaders leaves no room for anybody to suggest that Islam and Muslims condone or support any forms or acts of terrorism," said Esam Omeish, president of the Muslim American Society, one of the groups which announced the fatwa.

Ibrahim Hooper, spokesperson for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said it was the first time Muslims in North America had issued an anti-terrorism edict, although they had repeatedly condemned such acts of violence.

American Muslims this month launched a nationwide advertising campaign in which they declared that those who committed terrorism in the name of Islam were betraying the teachings of the Koran.

Muslim organizations say they have not so far detected any widespread reaction against their community after the most recent bombings.

Hooper said Thursday's religious ruling, issued by the Fiqh Council of North America, said: "We clearly and strongly state (that) all acts of terrorism targeting civilians are 'haram' (forbidden) in Islam."

"It is 'haram' for a Muslim to cooperate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence, and it is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians," he quoted the ruling as saying.

The Fiqh Council is an association of Islamic legal scholars that interprets Islamic religious law. Hooper said it was the only one of its kind in North America.

Some 130 North American Muslim organizations and leaders have signed and endorsed the fatwa.

Similar anti-terrorism fatwas have been issued by other Muslim communities. After the bombings in London religious leaders from about 500 British mosques issued such an edict and presented it to local politicians.

According to Islam, only responsible, religious authorities which are recognized by a Muslim community may issue fatwas. Many Muslims say extremists such as Osama bin Laden have given these edicts a bad name in the West because they have used them without authorization and to call for acts such as murder.

Because Islam is not based on a world-wide hierarchical structure, the edicts are not globally binding, and only affect the community whose religious leaders have issued the rulings.

All Fall Down
July 29, 2005
All Fall Down
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
New York Times

In visiting Gaza and Israel a few weeks ago, I realized how much the huge drama in Iraq has obscured some of the slower, deeper but equally significant changes happening around the Middle East. To put it bluntly, the political parties in the Arab world and Israel that have shaped the politics of this region since 1967 have all either crumbled or been gutted of any of their original meaning. The only major parties with any internal energy and coherence left today are Hamas, Hezbollah and the Muslim Brotherhood, and they are scared out of their minds - scared that if all the secular parties collapse, they may have to rule, and they don't have the answers for jobs, sewers and electricity.

In short, Iraq is not the only country in this neighborhood struggling to write a new social contract and develop new parties. The same thing is going on in Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Gaza. If you like comparative politics, you may want to pull up a chair and pop some popcorn, because this sort of political sound and light show comes along only every 30 or 40 years.

How did it all happen? The peace process and the large-scale immigration of Jews to Israel (aliyah) were the energy sources that animated the Israeli Labor Party, and their recent collapse has sapped its strength. Meanwhile, Ariel Sharon's decision to pull out of Gaza unilaterally and uproot all the Jewish settlements there, settlements that his Likud Party had extolled as part of its core mission, has fractured that party.

Likud's vision of creating a Greater Israel "collapsed because of Palestinian demography and terrorism, and Labor's vision of peace collapsed with the failure at Camp David," said the former Likud minister Dan Meridor.

The death of Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian intifada - which was as much a revolt by Palestinian youth against Fatah's corrupt old guard as against Israel - and Israel's crushing response have broken Fatah and its animating vision of "revolution until victory over the Zionist entity."

"Fatah never made the transition from a national liberation movement to civil society," said the Palestinian reformist legislator Ziad Abu Amr. Iraq's Baath Party was smashed to bits by President Bush. Syria's Baath - because of the loss of both its charismatic leader, Hafez al-Assad, and Lebanon, its vassal and launching pad for war on Israel - has no juice anymore. Lebanon's Christian Phalange Party and Amal Party, and the other ethnic parties there, are all casting about for new identities, now that their primary obsessions - the Syrian and Israeli bogymen - have both left Lebanon. Egypt's National Democratic Party, which should be spearheading the modernization of the Arab world, can't get any traction because Egyptians still view it as the extension of a nondemocratic regime.

Intensifying these pressures is the big change from Washington, said the Palestinian political scientist Khalil Shikaki: "As long as Washington was happy with regimes that offered only stability, there was no outside pressure for change. Now that the Bush administration has taken a bolder position, the public's expectations with regard to democratization are becoming greater. But the existing parties were not built to deliver that. So unless new ones emerge, either Hamas or anarchy could fill the vacuum."

The big challenge for all these societies is obvious: Can they reconstitute these old parties or build new ones that can make the task and narrative of developing their own countries - making their people competitive in an age when China and India and Ireland are eating their lunch - as emotionally gripping as fighting Israel or the West or settling the West Bank?

Can there be a Baath Party or a Fatah that has real views on competition, science and the environment? Will Labor and Likud (which, though badly hobbled, are still more like real political parties than those in the Arab world) ever have a defining debate over why nearly one in five Israelis live below the poverty line?

"For decades, people in the region were only interested in political parties that offered national liberation," remarked Jordan's deputy prime minister, Marwan Muashar, whose country is in the midst of a huge overhaul. "But now all the existential threats to the different states are gone. Now the focus has shifted from national liberation to personal liberation, but in all spheres: more equality, less corruption, better incomes, better schools. ... Governments are talking differently, but up to now people are still skeptical. They have heard so much talk. ... The first country or party that really shows results will have a big effect on the whole region because everyone is looking for a new vision."