Problem about the definition of gravity

I pondered on this question too. Amazing that Einstein could explain it in terms of time and space and maybe another factor. I would have thought gravity was instantaneous, which would transcend theories of faster than light speed. But I no longer want to think about it. SyFi seems to go into that realm. I am just a dummy now. Maybe a supercomputer can redefine physics as we know it and come up with time travel as a reality without having to use great amounts of energy.

Tests have repeatedly established that Einstein's General Theory of Relativity describes gravity accurately. So it is clearly accurate and should be believed.

It is incompatible with quantum mechanics however. And tests also establish that quantum mechanics is accurate and should be believed.

Someday someone will come up with a unified field theory that manages to encompass both theories under the same set of equations. But until then just apply each theory in its respective niche, and don't worry about the fact that it isn't compatible with the other theory.

Thank you, guys.
Piggy never doubt the accuracy of GR. But this thread is to explore something behind GR…

At this moment, piggy want to throw out an odd question:
Because the Earth has mass, light travel in curve nearby the Earth: space – time curvature;
If we build the coordinate system on the photon, the Earth moves in curve. If photon is massless, what cause space – time curvature?
他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班谁谁快快全世界全宇宙打靶啦。当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵

Dear guys, especially @ seac:
Also I never doubt I am a dummy as you…
“ I would have thought gravity was instantaneous, …”
Whether gravity is instantaneous depends on the definition.
Any method of description is limited ability, just like the ability of observation.
Gravity and gravitational wave should be two things.
他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班姓蔡的万岁，万岁，万万岁！当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵

Perhaps think in alternative angle might lead to break through:
Definition is sole while method of description can be different. A vivid analogy is machinery drawing. Six views are needed to describe a machine part: the top view, the bottom view, the front view, the rear view, the left side view and the right side view. Any method of description is limited ability. Different angle / method of description can demonstrate different properties.

Throw out a small stone, people can demonstrate the existence of gravity (in method of movement / dynamic);
Tightening a small stone at one end of a rubber string, people can also demonstrate the existence of gravity (in method of static).
Actually, no matter the objects move or not, gravity exists. So, if we put aside the element of time t, the method of description will be simpler.
他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班姓蔡的万岁，万岁，万万岁！当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵

Piggy invites those guys who are interested in exploring nature in another new way go with me. Thank you.
……………………………………………….
Assume a simple system: a planet and a spaceship, excluding all surrounding elements. The coordinate system for observer is built on the planet.
Assume the spaceship moves to the planet freely from remote place ∞. The length of the static spaceship in remote place ∞ is L, the rest mass is m0 and the dynamic mass is m. The mass of the planet is M.

When the spaceship moves freely to the position r away from the center of the planet, the velocity is v and the length is L’,
Then, Ek = mc² - m0c² = GMm/r , γm0c²﹣ m0 c ² = GMm/r
So, 1 / γ = r m0c²/( GMm + r m0c² )
Let ÿ = 1 / γ, then, ÿ = r m0c²/( GMm + r m0c² )
L’ = L / γ = ÿ L
When r →∞, ÿ →1, L’ → L; when r → 0, ÿ → 0, L’ → 0.
If no gravity existing between the spaceship and the planet, when the spaceship moves freely to the planet in constant velocity, the length of the spaceship will not contract more and more seriously.
So, the more and more serious contraction of the length of the spaceship during the course of the free approaching could be considered as the effect of gravity.

Illustration:
The length of the spaceship (L or L’) is just the specific demonstration of 3D physical space.
Due to the existence of mass (or say gravity), the three dimension physical space is uneven in the radial direction of the planet; Determined by the master (the planet) and reflected by the objective (the spaceship). Or say, the three dimension physical space inflates in the radial direction of the planet. The further away from the planet, the more serious the inflation will be.
……………………………………………….
(A vivid analogy is the density of air of the atmosphere of the earth, which is thicker at the bottom while thinner at the top.)
…………………………………………….
Gravitational redshift phenomenon:
If light travels from the ground to the top of the Pizza Tower, its wave length will increase. A physicist’s explanation is “It is the energy of the photon that reduces in doing work against the gravitational field.”
I don’t care too much whether his representation is sufficient enough. What I care is the alternative method of explanation:
Due to the inflation of the three dimension physical space, the wave length of light increases when it travels from the ground to the top of the Pizza Tower.
A vivid analogy is to put a wave length in a balloon. When the balloon inflates, the wave length will stretch.

No contradiction.
他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班姓蔡的万岁，万岁，万万岁！当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵
Liqiang Chen
Oct 14, 2020

The third method of description (the time-dimension only):
Time is fast at the top of the Pizza Tower, while slow at the bottom. If light travels from the ground to the top of the Pizza Tower, its frequency will decrease and wave length will increase.
No contradiction.
他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班谁谁快快全世界全宇宙打靶啦。当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵

Okay, the spirit of science should be exploration never stop its feet. The next issue is of course about energy.
………………………………
As I illustrate in the post ahead, “due to the existence of mass (or say gravity), the three dimension physical space is uneven.” The contraction or say in counter way the inflation of the three dimension physical space reflects the gravitational potential. The inflation of the three dimension physical space reflects the increase of gravitational potential.
At this moment, I pull in another thing, the mass- space equation to join in the fun: M ∝ 1 / L’ (note: I am habitual to use upper case letters in this equation because the lower case of L looks like a “1”) illustrates that the contraction or say in counter way the inflation of the three dimension physical space reflects the dynamic mass, in turn, reflects the kinematic energy Ek = mc² - m0c². The inflation of the three dimension physical space reflects the decrease of the kinematic energy.
For example, if you throw a ball from the ground to the top of the Pizza Tower, the inflation of the three dimension physical space (the relativistic size of the ball) reflects both the increase of gravitational potential and the decrease of the kinematic energy. That’s why the energy conserves
(︱△U ︱= ︱△Ek︱ ).

Note: For details about the mass – space equation, please see the thread “cosmos vs us” in the philosophy column.

Liqiang Chen 陈力强
Oct 24, 2020
给他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班谁谁一个超文革赛阎王光荣称号快快全世界全宇宙打靶啦。当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵

(The stuff in this post already existed in the thread “matter vs anti - matter” in the philosophy forum. Perhaps it’s relevance to this thread. Piggy moves it here for reference.)

Philosophy of the energy – mass relationship:

We know that, in SR, Einstein derived the relationship of energy - mass c².

Below, we explore from another angle using another theory and see if we can get it.
Construct a model of spherical electromagnetic wave: circle kind of standing electromagnetic wave on any normal cutting plane of the small sphere. (You can imagine the sea waves in the Pacific, Atlantic and Indian Oceans…Of course, this imagination is just for easy to understand the conception of the spherical model). Then, the energy of the electromagnetic wave is confined on the small spherical surface (deposited) and will not demonstrate the property of energy. X4 Theory considers this spherical model as a model of elementary particle. It demonstrates the property of mass only.
Next, unfold the circle kind of standing electromagnetic wave on any normal cutting plane of the small spherical surface. It travels in straight line in a speed of c. X4 Theory considers it as the physical model of a released photon. The property of energy can be demonstrated.
Because it’s just that thing, what different is just the moving speed of c in straight line. Then, the relationship between the energy of the released photon and the mass of the circle kind of standing electromagnetic wave on any normal cutting plane of the small spherical surface is “c” in logic.
We notice that this not yet enough to represent the mass – energy relationship because the circle is just a line on the spherical surface while the whole model is a small spherical surface.
Because the simplest relationship between “surface” and “line” is “square” in logic, the simplest relationship of energy - mass should be “c²” in logic.
(Note: Actually the elementary particle model in X4 Theory should be a spherical surface. But for intuition sake, the “circle kind standing wave” can serve as a simplified model. And for convenience in calculation in chapters below, the simplified model is applied. And it’s considered that the energy on the spherical surface be converted entirely into the “circle kind standing wave”.)

When the spherical electromagnetic wave demonstrates only the property of mass, it doesn’t mean that it has no energy;
The same principle, when the released photon demonstrates the property of energy, it doesn’t mean that it has no mass.
It’s just that thing. So, for a photon, E = E0, m = m0.
给他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班谁谁一个超文革赛阎王光荣称号快快全世界全宇宙打靶啦。当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵

(The stuff in this post already existed in the thread “matter vs anti - matter” in the philosophy forum. Perhaps it’s relevance to this thread. Piggy moves it here for reference.)

The continued topic of the mass – space equation:
The derivation of the mass – space equation L ∝ 1/M from macroscopic angle could be seen in the thread “cosmos vs us” in the philosophy forum. Hereby, we derive it from microscopic angle.

First, there is a question, why the energy equation for a released photon is E = hγ in Quantum theory and need not to take the number of crests (n of λ, here n is a natural number) into account?
In X4 physical model, a released photon is just a section of electromagnetic wave, its energy E should ∝the number of crests (n of λ).
It implies that all released photons have the same number of crests (n of λ)? Temporarily suppose it is and see what will happen.
Next, we refer to the simplified physical model (circle kind standing wave). Unfold the standing wave, it turns into two released photons (for simplicity sake, just consider that it’s one released photon).

We watch the game in counter way, it’s one released photon turn into a standing wave.
And we got: standing wave which constitute all kinds of elementary particles have the same number of crests (note: nt of λt, when referring to travelling waves; and ns of λs, when referring to standing waves. The lower index “t” means travelling wave while “s” means standing wave in this context).


Next, we try to use the X4 physical model for elementary particle and the temporary conclusion of same number of crests in this chapter to calculate the radius of elementary particle.
Below, we calculate the central line of the helical track of layer instead of the helical track itself because the speed of light should be calculated on the central line. And the wavelengthλt should be the projective wavelength on the central line.
E = Mc² = 2hγt = 2hc / λt then:
λt = 2h / Mc then:
The radius of elementary particle is:
r = ntλt / 2π = nth /πcM
Because nt, h, π, c are all constants, we use a constant “a” for simplicity and a = nth/πc, then:
r = a/M
Namely, r ∝1/M. In fact, it’s the same meaning as L ∝ 1/ M ahead.
The existence of the mass – space equation does not depend on reference frame / movement / SR.

给他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班谁谁一个超文革赛阎王光荣称号快快全世界全宇宙打靶啦。当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵

This post is a bit odd.
First, piggy invites guys to take a look at the what coffin box from what CN said in piggy’s thread in PHF.
https://physicshelpforum.com/threads/the-game-of-match-sticks.16181/post-50090

But if you are a guy who believes in the philosophy of touching the elephant, then please go ahead with piggy.
………………………………………………….
The Space – Frequency Equation:
Because r = ntλt / 2π, λt = c / γt, then: r = ntc /γt2π
Because nt, c, 2π are all constants, r ∝ 1 / γt, or γt∝ 1 / r
In general words, r ∝ 1 / γ, or γ ∝ 1 / r
This could be called the Space – Frequency Equation.
………………………….
Primary unified conception of energy:
First, Piggy has to move some relevant stuff here:
“As I illustrate ahead, “due to the existence of mass (or say gravity), the three dimension physical space is uneven.” The contraction or say in counter way the inflation of the three dimension physical space reflects the gravitational potential. The inflation of the three dimension physical space reflects the increase of gravitational potential.
At this moment, I pull in another thing, the mass- space equation to join in the fun: M ∝ 1 / L’ (note: I am habitual to use upper case letters in this equation because the lower case of L looks like a “1”) illustrates that the contraction or say in counter way the inflation of the three dimension physical space reflects the dynamic mass, in turn, reflects the kinematic energy Ek = mc² - m0c². The inflation of the three dimension physical space reflects the decrease of the kinematic energy.
For example, if you throw a ball from the ground to the top of the Pizza Tower, the inflation of the three dimension physical space (the relativistic size of the ball) reflects both the increase of gravitational potential and the decrease of the kinematic energy. That’s why the energy conserves (︱△U ︱= ︱△Ek︱ ).”

Actually, according to the space – frequency equation, the contraction or say in counter way the inflation of the three dimension physical space also reflects the internal energy.
For example, if you throw an elementary particle from the ground to the top of the Pizza Tower, the inflation of the three dimension physical space (the relativistic size of the elementary particle r) reflects the increase of gravitational potential, the decrease of the kinematic energy as well as the decrease of the internal energy. (︱△U ︱= ︱△Ek︱= h︱△γ︱ ).
Namely, the essence of the change of the gravitational potential and the kinematic energy of the elementary particle could be considered as the change of the internal energy, in turn, the change of the frequency of circle kind standing wave. (Note: this principle is also applicable to the released photon.)
Assume a free elementary particle stations in the infinite remote point from the Earth, the circle kind standing wave (simplified model) has a basic radium of “r0” and a basic frequency of “γ0”. When it approaches the Earth freely in the gravitational field, the gravitational potential decreased and the kinematic energy is generated and the internal energy increased:
︱U ︱= ︱Ek︱= h︱△γ︱
In this sense, perhaps it could be considered that the gravitational potential and the kinematic energy essentially are the change of the internal energy, in turn, the change of the frequency.
The zero point of gravitational potential defines in the infinite point is a natural choice.

And at this moment, piggy wants to talk about the problem of contraction of space in SR explicitly. The movement of an elementary particle (put aside the situation of a released photon temporarily) results in the kinematic energy (of that elementary particle). And the kinematic energy is equivalent to the increase of frequency of the circle kind standing wave (simplified model). According to the Space – Frequency Equation r ∝ 1 / γ, the contraction of space should be in all directions.

Liqiang Chen
陈力强
Dec 25, 2020
给他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班谁谁一个超文革赛阎王光荣称号快快全世界全宇宙打靶啦。当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵

Actually, Einstein was the first guy who derived that the kinematic energy essentially is the change of the internal energy:
In Einstein’s SR, the kinematic energy Ek = mc² - m0c²,
The item mc² or m0c² is neither kinematic energy nor gravitational potential, but the internal energy.

Piggy just illustrates what’s the internal energy and how it is deposited.
给他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班谁谁一个超文革赛阎王光荣称号快快全世界全宇宙打靶啦。当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵

Supplementary stuff to the chapter “primary unified conception of energy”:

(In the X4 Theory, the released photon is in a very special matter state and it must be treated in a special way.)
In my physical model, the released photon is a section of electromagnetic wave, different matter state from other elementary particles (spherical electromagnetic wave). It can’t sit, and must travels in light speed c. For a released photon, the internal energy is just the kinematic energy:
Ek = hγ = mc². So, ︱△Ek︱= h︱△γ︱.
Its internal energy hγ is description of the aspect of wave characteristic (electromagnetic wave) while its kinematic energy mc² is description of the aspect of particle characteristic (a section).
In gravitational field, a balloon is needed to help the research. Put a wave length in a balloon and throw it from the ground to the top of the Pizza Tower. The balloon inflates, the wave length will stretch and the frequency will decrease. The inflation of the three dimension physical space reflects both the increase of gravitational potential and the decrease of the frequency (the decrease of the internal energy). Then:︱△U ︱= h︱△γ︱.
So,︱△U ︱= ︱△Ek︱= h︱△γ︱
Namely, the essence of the change of the gravitational potential and the kinematic energy of the released photon could be considered as the change of the internal energy, in turn, the change of the frequency.

Have a lovely New Year, guys.haha
Liqiang Chen
Dec 31, 2020

给他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班谁谁一个超文革赛阎王光荣称号快快全世界全宇宙打靶啦。当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵

The dynamic vs the gravitational vs the static, touchy and feely:

The mass – space equation L ∝ 1/ M come in first;
Next, the time – space equation △t ∝ 1 / L.
Then: △t ∝ M. This might be called the Mass – Time equation.
The mass – space equation from my physical model of elementary particle is r ∝ 1/ M;
The Mass – Time equation accompanies it is also △t ∝ M.
The internal energy E ∝ M, then:
L ∝ 1/ E, or r ∝ 1/ E, this can be called the Energy – Space equation;
And △t ∝ E, this can be called the Energy – Time equation

Hereby, X4 Theory formally employs mass or energy (internal energy) to control space and time. It’s applicable in all situations of the dynamic vs the gravitational vs the static.

The dynamic situation (put aside the case of the released photon temporarily):
When an elementary particle moves, the kinematic energy occurs and its internal energy E = m0c² + Ek. According to the Energy – Space equation L ∝ 1/ E, or r ∝ 1/ E, the increase of the internal energy E results in the contraction of the 3D physical space. According to the Energy – Time equation △t ∝ E, the increase of the internal energy E results in the inflation of time.

The gravitational situation:
When an elementary particle locates in gravitational field (relative to the infinite point), its gravitational energy is negative. Its internal energy E increases. According to the Energy – Space equation L ∝ 1/ E, or r ∝ 1/ E, the increase of the internal energy E results in the contraction of the 3D physical space. According to the Energy – Time equation △t ∝ E, the increase of the internal energy E results in the inflation of time.

The static situation:
“According to the mass – space equation r ∝1 / M, the rise of the increased mass of the proton results in the contraction of the radius of the proton in μ Hydrogen atom.” (For details , please see relevance in the thread “matter vs anti matter”). And according to the mass – time equation △t ∝ M, the rise of the increased mass of the proton the inflation of time of the proton in μ Hydrogen atom. There is no absolute time, even in situation of the static.

The cosmic environment situation:
The “mass – space equation” can transform into another form: L ∝ 1/ρ. The mass density of the cosmos now is much smaller than that of billions of years ago. According to the mass space equation L ∝ 1/ρ, the 3D physical space of the cosmos is much different than that of billions of years ago. And the mass – time equation can transform into another form: △t ∝ ρ. The criteria of time is dynamic in the evolution of cosmos.

Liqiang Chen
Jan 6, 2021
给他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班谁谁一个超文革赛阎王光荣称号快快全世界全宇宙打靶啦。当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵

Is not gravity the net result of the other three elementary forces?

Providing a dynamic equilibrium on all levels when combined.

Thank you for your presence in this thread and exchange views.
Piggy's humble opinion is that there is just two fundamental natural forces: gravity which is the force in 3D space as well as eletro - magnetic force which is the force in 4D space. They two could truely be called the "interaction".

Piggy has another neutron model which can demonstrate that the so called strong force is actually electro - magnetic force. Piggy will talk about it in the thread "strong nuclear force" in the physics forum in an appropriate time.

In respect of the so called weak force, piggy care little about it. Piggy's intention is to replace it with the "the mechanism of formation of matter" which at least is as fundamental as the fundamental natural forces.

Supplementary stuff to the chapter “the dynamic vs the gravitational vs the static”:
(In the X4 Theory, the released photon is in a very special matter state and it must be treated in a special way.)

The dynamic situation:
Light speed is an invariable in different inertial frames. That means the kinematic energy of a released photon does not change in different inertial frames: Ek = Ek’. Also its internal energy does not change in different inertial frames: E = E’. According to Energy – Space equation, the 3D physical space does not change in different inertial frames; according to Energy – Time equation, the time does not change in different inertial frames: L = L’; △t = △t’.
So, L / △t = L’ / △t’. Namely c = c’. It means light speed is an invariable in different inertial frames. No contradiction.

The gravitational situation:
If a released photon travels from the ground to the top of the Pizza tower, its gravitational potential increases. And its internal energy decreases (note: its kinematic energy also decreases). According to Energy – Space equation, the 3D physical space inflates. Its wave length stretches. This point could be verified by the gravitational red shift phenomenon. According to Energy – Time equation, time contracts.
At this moment, piggy wants to talk a bit about the light speed in gravitational field. We had some discussions in this respect in PHF:
https://physicshelpforum.com/threads/general-vs-special.16046/post-49565
Piggy agrees that light speed does not change in gravitational field.
It demonstrates that the employment of velocity to control space – time is not sufficient enough. Energy / mass might be a better player.

The static situation:
In my physical model, the released photon is a section of electromagnetic wave, different matter state from other elementary particles (spherical electromagnetic wave). It can’t sit, and must travels in light speed c. So, there is no a static situation for the released photon.

The cosmic environment situation:
If the cosmos is expanding, the mass density of the cosmos now is much smaller than that of billions of years ago. According to the mass space equation L ∝ 1/ρ, the 3D physical space of the cosmos is much different than that of billions of years ago. That means when light from a remote galaxy reaches the Earth today, its wavelength has been stretched significantly. Piggy has talked about this point ahead.

Liqiang Chen
Jan 15, 2021
给他江门地方黑恶势力钟永康集团及新会一中九一四班谁谁一个超文革赛阎王光荣称号快快全世界全宇宙打靶啦。当今时代，全世界没有什么人能够值得如此殊荣。呵呵

What piggy doing is very clear: exploring the unified rules in the 3D physical space. Perhaps its sense in physic is a bit broader than just the gravity.

Well there possibly and almost initially is only one force which is the strong interaction. But this one force might be unbalanced. The origin of this force sits within the structure of the Proton.

I assume the following: there is only 3D Space with its 6 directions shaped by the presence, absence and polarity of Matter. The "first" actor is the strong force, resulting in the weaker force which combine into the electromagnetic force. But the strong force could be approached as being electro(magnetic).

The averaged action(s) or state of Matter within the 3D Space result in the bending of this Space, back and forth. This bending is represented by the Gravity factor. The latter you could note as being the 4th dimension; State.

Then we can consider that the interactions of Matter (as shown in average by the level of Gravity) influence the ticker rate (not observed Time) at which the interactions (can) take place. The ticker rate is the 5th and final dimension; Time. The ticker rate is an extremely local variable like the strong force, this might indicate that possibly the root of the strong force is not influenced by the 4th and 5th dimension. Consider for instance the start of the Universe that likely had a close to zero ticker rate (and high density). Where the edge of the Universe likely has a high ticker rate.

A Proton might essentially and initially be a Cube. In which 8 negative particles rest and 12 positive particles rest. The 8 negative particles sit at the corners of the Cube, the 12 positive sit at the struts. Yielding a positive force of 1/3. Essentially the strong force. Able to bind Neutrons and electrons. One or more additional negative particles might be locked in at the center of this Cube at times.

Some sub-Proton particles essentially are only temporary and therefore virtual representations. With virtual I possibly mean to say that they exist for a shorter “time” than the ticker rate allows. As the ticker rate for the strong force might be close to (or be a virtual) zero, little interaction is allowed within this context.

Photons are essentially electrons that flipped polarity at the speed of light. Anything below the speed of light would have turned it into a positron. Neutrinos possibly are extremely high wavelength Photons, therefore their Energy and virtual mass are almost zero but positive.

3D Space is possibly filled with negatively charged or biased particles. Which turn on at Matter.

The 6 quarks are essentially a decay of the positive and negative Proton particles in 6 directions.

Likely the same particle but ejected in 6 different directions therefore with varying characteristics.

Consider that all forms of Math are essentially virtual and that it should relate to real variables only.