Beginning to speak out and beaten and killed for it.
Lash, Do ever know what you are talking about?
The call in Iran: Arise, women golfers
July 07, 2005
THE ban on women at Teheran's lone golf course proved superfluous for a couple of decades after the Islamic revolution owing to one simple fact: Women found it basically impossible to swing a golf club while enveloped in yards of billowing cloth.
But as the laws demanding modest dress eased in recent years to allow minimalist head scarves and body-hugging tunics, Iranian women have begun venturing onto the now permitted fairways.
Don't imagine, however, that golf here exactly matches the game elsewhere - not least because of the strong official sentiment ever since the 1979 revolution that aping the West constitutes a sin.
You know you are playing golf in the Islamic Republic when there are only a dozen holes. Teheran's only golf course used to have the regulation 18 holes, but six were considered such prime real estate that the Revolutionary Guards confiscated them to build office blocks and residential complexes.
Perhaps most surprisingly given the obstacles they face, most of the players on any given day are attractive, fit young women from 16 to 30, whose other activities include things like fencing for the national team.
Whether it will stay this way is anyone's guess since the election of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, a strong conservative, as president on 24 June. For the moment, though, golf is the rage.
'I used to think of golf as a sport for old fogies, chiefly men,' said Rabieh Alikhasy, 30, an aerobics instructor with an engaging smile who overflows with the zeal of a new convert.
'But I think golf is the sport I had been looking for my whole life - I had never found one this satisfying. Playing golf makes me even happier than going to a great party.'
Sports for women were almost universally banned, or at least heavily discouraged, in the first years after the 1979 revolution.
During those fervent times, with women expected to wear the long, flapping black robe known as the chador, golf was impossible to contemplate.
By the 1990s, when the chador had been replaced with ample raincoats and hoods, women were swathed in just too much cloth to play.
Firouzeh Zamani tried. Swinging turned into an exercise in frustration, however.
'I thought I couldn't have a good time here, so I stopped,' said Zamani, who admits only to being about 30.
She learned while living outside Iran and is now the No 1 golfer on the four-member women's national team.
Everything changed two years ago when the official sports federation began urging women to play.
International women's sports competition had been reintroduced to Iran in the early 1990s by Faezeh Hashemi, daughter of Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, who was then president.
But outside their own country, Iranian women were expected to play in open arenas, and the hard-liners baulked.
After Mohammad Khatami came to power as president in 1997, Islamic dress started shrinking and finally became a simple head scarf and tunic. (The tighter or more slit, the better, and preferably pink this year.)
Iran were looking for ways to take part in international women's events without abandoning Islamic dress.
Enter golf.
'We cannot row or play volleyball when we are covered like this,' said Farideh Shojaei, the vice president of the Golf Federation of the Islamic Republic of Iran, indicating her own black hood and voluminous cloak, still the uniform of Iranian officialdom.
'But we can participate in golf with these same clothes and there is no difficulty.'
The appeal of the sport is obvious, beyond the fact that it is a ticket to compete overseas. Most women's sports take place indoors in cloistered arenas where men cannot pry.
'When I came here and saw this big, open land, I decided this was the thing to do,' said Mona Alizadeh, the women's coach at Azadeh University.
Two years ago, Zamani was the only local woman golfer in the country. The course was open to women just three mornings a week.
Now, there are some 800 women playing golf, with 50 of them taking part in regular tournaments, Shojaei says. They can play any time of day, but with men only if related to them.
Her goal? A whopping 200,000 Iranian women playing golf in five years.
She admits it might be a tad ambitious, given that the Revolution Sports Complex has the only course in Teheran and is the sole grass course in the entire country.
Four other courses elsewhere in Iran are basically desert sand, with the 'greens' soaked with oil to allow for putting.
Most women who play golf credit the dynamic Shojaei, a former member of the women's national basketball team, with building its current cachet.
She lobbied many young, accomplished female athletes to give the sport a try. On Fridays, she helped establish free lessons and as many as 250 people, more than half women, usually appear.
How was Shojaei inspired?
'I read somewhere that Michael Jordan played golf between basketball seasons and thought maybe it helped a basketball player learn to concentrate,' she said, laughing. 'This is a good enough reason for you - right?' - AP.
cicerone imposter wrote:Pifka, There are Arab/Muslim countries that are not repressive against women. Women in Iran are beginning to speak out against women repression, and more are beginning to wear western-style clothes. When we visited Turkey some years ago, our guide was a Muslim woman, but she wore jeans and didn't cover her head. I believe secularism must be accepted slowly in countries that wish to westernize. Trying to force-feed American style democracy will fail.
I'm not trying to force-feed AMerican style democracy... I'm trying to insure that women have rights.
So, to me, your examples don't show any such thing, though it is wonderful that they are beginning to speak out against repression, CI. I respectfully submit that the experiences of a tourist do not always provide one with a ready guide to the culture. Please read this and then tell me again about these countries not being repressive against women. I freely admit, Turkey is so anxious to join the E.U. that it is holding near back-to-back conferences to change their laws including a fairly shocking law from 1995. Can you 'splain that?
http://kilden.forskningsradet.no/c17224/artikkel/vis.html?tid=25034
I'll just give you a brief quote of this so you know what you're up against:
Quote:Iranian laws are based on the shari'ah-laws, which in turn is founded on Islamic holy writings. According to Iranian law a man can kill his wife without punishment if he catches her with another man. But there must be witnesses to the incident - four men.
And from the
United Nations Report:
INTEGRATION OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS OF WOMEN AND
THE GENDER PERSPECTIVE
VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
Quote:Turkey
140. By letter dated 30 August 2001 sent jointly with the Special Rapporteur on torture, the Special Rapporteur advised the Government that she had received information on the following individual cases.
141. Fatma Tokmak, a woman of Kurdish origin, and her two-year-old son Azat were reportedly detained by police officers in Istanbul on 9 December 1996 on suspicion that she and her husband were members of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK). During their detention in police custody at the Anti-Terror Department of the police headquarters in Istanbul, until 20 December 1996, they were reportedly tortured. In front of Fatma Tokmak's eyes, Azat was reportedly given electric shocks on the back and had cigarettes stubbed out on his hands, to elicit confessions from his mother. Fatma Tokmak was reportedly violently undressed, forced to lie on the floor while her son was put on top of her and told "Come on, **** your mother". She was reportedly threatened with rape, including with a truncheon, several times hung by her arms and sexually abused while in that position. She was threatened with her son's death when police took him away. On 20 December 1996, she was reportedly taken to the State Security Court in Istanbul, which remanded her to prison in Gebze. With the help of her lawyer, her son was reportedly found and returned to her mother some weeks later. A medical report by the Istanbul Medical Chamber is said to corroborate her allegations. She reportedly filed a formal complaint in 1997 against the police officers who allegedly tortured them. In July 1998, the public prosecutor in Fatih reportedly decided not to initiate proceedings, a decision appealed by her lawyers and rejected in June 2000. Fatma Tokmak is said to remain in Gebze prison charged with PKK membership in a trial in which the death penalty is being sought. She is believed not to have received a comprehensive medical examination.
Quote:Congratulating Turkey on the progress it had made in implementing the Convention's provisions, experts welcomed the great potential for change made possible by recent revisions of the country's Constitution, including the amendment to its Article 10, by which the State was obligated to ensuring the practical right to equality. Also praiseworthy was the enactment of new legislation, including the law on the protection of the family, by which domestic violence had been legally defined for the first time, and the anticipated entry into force this year of the new Penal Code, which, for the first time, criminalized marital rape and sexual harassment in the workplace.
Describing the perception that Turkey's legal reforms were part of a strategy for European Union membership, several experts asked what the Government was doing to dispel that perception, particularly by putting the provisions of the new laws and amendments into practice. In that regard, experts encouraged the Government to use special temporary measures to accelerate de facto equality. In presenting the country's position, one expert noted, the delegation had stressed the need for time to achieve cultural change. However, time sometimes needed help and, looking at Turkey's scale of progress, one could say that should it remain stable, it would take the country more than 200 years to achieve political parity, for example.
Two hundred years to parity? And that's the best of the bunch. For example... just two and half years ago Turkey was forced to disband the 1995 rule of law that girls who weren't virgins didn't deserve eduation:
Quote:One such statute was the Awards and Discipline in the High School of the Ministry of Education, which came into effect on 31 January 1995. The statute stated that the "proof of unchastity" was a valid reason for expulsion from the formal educational system. Virginity testing was often the method by which the necessary evidence was produced. As a result of pressure from women's groups and public debate, the Ministry of Education has removed the reference to "unchastity" from the revised statute on 26 February 2002, thus, eliminating gross gender-based discrimination.
correct me if I'm wrong Pif but didn't the Lady Di have to undergo some sort of medical exam before marrying the Charlie to prove her virginity?
Pifka, I didn't say there aren't any repression. I was only suggesting that some countries are more lenient than others, and the movement for more freedom will be slow. You're directing your anger at the wrong person. I was just trying to show another side to your bleak picture. If you want miracles, you're not going to find it.
Ow, Diane just slapped my across my head for my above post.
I think it's horridly callous to bring a frivolous propaganda piece about women golfing in Iran, while some of the most vile atrocities are being perpetrated on young women and girls.
Read about women in Iran.
The first paragraph.
March 8th, 2005, marked the 94th anniversary of International Women's Day around the world. As women in most countries have made progress in many areas, Iranian women are still struggling for their most basic and elementary rights. WFAFI believes Iran is the largest prison for women. There are widespread women's rights abuses that ranges from economic discrimination to political suppression. Forcing women into prostitution, sex trade and human trafficking, execution of minors, rape, and torture including stoning to death all reflect the extent of atrocities committed against women by the Islamic Fundamentalist rulers in Tehran. Girls between ages 10 to 17 are the prime victims of sexual slavery in Iran. In Tehran alone, 4000 street girls roam the city on daily basis and are subjected to sexual and physical violence. Reports indicate that 90% of the runaway girls end up in prostitution or sold in Persian Gulf human trafficking market.
Read about these girls and tell me how life for women in Iran is improving.
You should know a little about what you're talking about CI, before you tell someone they're wrong.
cicerone imposter wrote:Pifka, I didn't say there aren't any repression. I was only suggesting that some countries are more lenient than others, and the movement for more freedom will be slow. You're directing your anger at the wrong person. I was just trying to show another side to your bleak picture. If you want miracles, you're not going to find it.
You think that's angry?
Oh, my dear friend, you have no idea, then, what an angry woman is about. That was me being nice to you. Remember, you are the one who said:
Quote:There are Arab/Muslim countries that are not repressive against women.
I just think (no, I know) that you were totally wrong in your original estimate that Iran and Turkey weren't repressive. I don't want miracles. I want justice.
Don't you remember this chant? What do want?
Justice! When do we want it?
NOW!!!!
In fact, those two countries are quite repressive. That they may not seem as hideously outdated as some others with their medieval laws... possibly they don't half-bury women and stone them to death... or provide for female genital mutilation... or consider rape a just form of punishment, but... they're repressive, all right.
Dys... Surely you don't want to go there. Oh, I see. You don't. Good.
UN women's rights official raps Iran over abuses Sun. 6 Feb 2005
TEHRAN - The UN's top official on women's rights chastised Iran on Sunday over what she said were abuses and discrimination built in to the Islamic Republic's laws.
"In the family, women face psychological, physical and sexual violence, and gender discrimination," said Yakin Erturk, the UN's Special Rapporteur on Violence against Women.
She told a news conference that Iran's laws "do not provide protection for victims of domestic violence and make it difficult to escape violence through divorce," adding that suffering wives also faced "time-consuming judicial procedures and stigmatisation".
Women wishing to divorce can only demand one if they can prove their husband is either impotent, a drug addict, unable to provide for a family or living away from home for more than six months.
For men, divorce was often a simple procedure, although that was slowly changing.
"I am concerned that victims of rape face obstacles in seeking justice and if they cannot prove they have raped they face sentences," Erturk said, referring to cases where women complaining of rape run the risk of being charged for adultery.
-------------
This article and many others about reality of Islamic culture and Iranian women and girls are clickable from the link I brought above.
Don't you people understand what "slow progress" means? Holy cow! I know as well as anybody that women all over the world are not treated fairly - even in the US. So what's your point?
Even to question what I observed first hand in Turkey is only an example of "what I saw." Not that it represents the whole of the country or all of the Arab countries. You mean to deny me what I have seen first hand? Get real.
You mean to put your vacation scenes up against atrocities suffered by children and women, and whitewash what hell they're living in?
Not in this lifetime.
cicerone imposter wrote:Don't you people understand what "slow progress" means? Holy cow! I know as well as anybody that women all over the world are not treated fairly - even in the US. So what's your point?
How about some slow progress for Iraq?
If you knew women were treated so horribly, how in God's name could you show that golfing article? I can't believe that! Was it a joke at their expense? What was that article about?
Our Muslim guide in Turkey.
Your foot in your mouth:
Lash, Do ever know what you are talking about?
The call in Iran: Arise, women golfers
July 07, 2005
THE ban on women at Teheran's lone golf course proved superfluous for a couple of decades after the Islamic revolution owing to one simple fact: Women found it basically impossible to swing a golf club while enveloped in yards of billowing cloth.
But as the laws demanding modest dress eased in recent years to allow minimalist head scarves and body-hugging tunics, Iranian women have begun venturing onto the now permitted fairways.
Don't imagine, however, that golf here exactly matches the game elsewhere - not least because of the strong official sentiment ever since the 1979 revolution that aping the West constitutes a sin.
You know you are playing golf in the Islamic Republic when there are only a dozen holes. Teheran's only golf course used to have the regulation 18 holes, but six were considered such prime real estate that the Revolutionary Guards confiscated them to build office blocks and residential complexes.
Perhaps most surprisingly given the obstacles they face, most of the players on any given day are attractive, fit young women from 16 to 30, whose other activities include things like fencing for the national team....
---------------
I say there are awful things happening in Iran. THIS is your response. This wasn't about your Turkey vacation. Again, I suggest you don't address me in a negative way when you have no clue as to what you're talking about.
Slow progress wouldn't be so cavalier to you if YOU were the one oppressed.
Lash, When will you ever learn? I guess never. You make stupid presumptions of people, then expect some rational answer.
You and Bushies make me sick. You talk a good game of how children in other countries are treated, but don't give a shet about the children in the US. What have you done for the children of the world? Anything?
As for my vacation scenes, many people on a2k appreciate and ask me for them. You are not forced to look at them.
Progress can come in small steps. At first women were not allowed to play golf in Iran. They now play golf. You see, that's simple logic; it's called progress.
This is generally how these stupid dust-ups start.
Quote:Lash, Do ever know what you are talking about?
As long as you ask for it, you'll get it.
Your pictures don't belong in this thread as a prop for you to hide from your crass, misogynist statements.
Quote:As for my vacation scenes, many people on a2k appreciate and ask me for them
.
Go find one of them.
Will you go to hell if I do? There's got to be a reward for making you look stupid again.
cicerone imposter wrote:You and Bushies make me sick.
Try rationalizing someones arguments instead of just puking all over them. I certainly don't think it is Muslim bashing to address their treatment of women in the harshest of terms. It's harsh, and so should be the dialog about it.
By the way, that turkish guide was a total plant.
