What happens Post-Trump; Can we win the peace?

@farmerman,

I don't care one bit what happens to Trump as a person.

I do care about what happens to us as a country. The damage done in the last four years will take a long time to heal.

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And now as we head out for intermission, some appropriate music...

Starting with this lovely piece for peace...
Dona Nobis Pacem, performed here by Julie Gaulke

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@roger,

roger wrote:

maxdancona wrote:

I also think that there is a fair chance of a true Blue Wave election this year in which the Democrats will win both the House and the Senate. I am not sure if this is a good thing. Maybe divided government would be better for us as a country.

That is another one of my concerns: executive and both houses of congress being of the same party. Good grief, they might actually get something.

Why would anyone fear an effective, united government is beyond me, especially in times of crisis. You guys need to change so many things... Why would anyone see immobilism as an attractive option right now?

Do-nothing, debilitated democracies are a good way to make your people long for a fascist leader, who can ‘get things done’.

If Joe Biden try “respectability politics” and goes the way of Obama — cool, classy, bipartisan, and thus totally ineffective — he will fail and your next fascist president could be worse that Trump.

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@Olivier5,

Well, that's just finer than frog's hair. We have two dominate political parties, and that situation is likely to continue for some time. Republicans and Democrats. Pick one, because only one is going to hold the presidency, the house, and the senate. Does anything in the past year suggest that the House will impeach a member of their own party, and have the Senate convict? I happen to think our system of checks and balances is very useful.

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@roger,

Immobilism is great when you have no predators, like the dodo.

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@maxdancona,

I think that if Trump walks, this country will always have the rest of the world wonder about what the hell weve become. Most of the civilized world thinks we're a nation of morons, with Trump as president, we've been proving it.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I don't care one bit what happens to Trump as a person.

I do care about what happens to us as a country.

Which is another way of saying no action should be taken against Trump in case his supporters get upset.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

Extremism demands an "either-or" mentality.

...and you wonder why your country is going to **** ?

(Assuming it hasn't already gone to **** of course - which is very much debatable.)

Quote:

Either you support Black Lives Matter completely, or you support police completely.

Bullshit, and either way, that sort of thinking is exactly why your country is so divided.

...how about supporting common bloody sense?

Quote:

I am hoping that after Trump, we can get beyond this. By this I mean that we actually create policy that makes real improvements rather than the angry shouting we see now.

Good luck with that, as by the sounds of it, and if your own words are anything to go by... you'll need a lot of it.

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@Olivier5,

I am almost as afraid of the extreme left as I am of Trump. If the left takes over, there needs to be a real check on what they can do.

For an example.... I worry about free speech protections being eroded under an unchecked Democratic government controlled by the left.

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@maxdancona,

That’s your comparison, a black person’s life means as much as your desire to spout hate speech.

They’re being killed and you’re worried that you might no be able to call for their deaths.

That’s what you’re scared of.

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@maxdancona,

Seems to me that today's Americans are afraid of any public governance, and very risk-adverse there.

It comes across as a bit strange, especially when you compare it with their views and practices in private governance, where they are not risk-adverse at all....

Think about it. If you are a stakeholder in a company, do you want the company's management to be divided and fighting among themselves? Or do you want them to chart a clear vision and then follow it with energy and coherence?

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

That’s your comparison, a black person’s life means as much as your desire to spout hate speech.

They’re being killed and you’re worried that you might no be able to call for their deaths.

That’s what you’re scared of.

Yes Izzy. This is exactly right. I want both racial justice and free speech.

My fear is that an government unduly influenced by the left will make me choose between these two important principles.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I am pretty sure that Donald Trump will lose this election. I could be wrong (I was wrong once before), but for this thread... let's assume I am right and Donald Trump loses this election by a comfortable margin. I also assume that Trump will leave office and any short emotional messiness in the aftermath will end quickly enough.

So that leaves us with a rather weak establishment president with no clear platform and a deeply divided country with anger on both sides.
I want real police reforms and a discussion about racial justice. I don't want an unchecked progressive left looking for unquestioned social change. I believe middle America should have a voice in a screaming match dominated by the two extremes.

My fear is that the two extremes solidify their gains and losses, dig into the new reality and continue this destructive partisanship.

For the country to heal, Biden is going to have to push back on the progressive left. Winning the peace to me means stepping back a bit, listening to the other side, and charting a course forward away from the extremism of the past 4 years.

My opinion is:

One...Trump may win, although I think Biden is the better bet for a win in November. Trump's supporters will lose no matter what. If Biden wins...they lose. If Trump wins...EVERYONE on the planet loses, including Trump supporters. Hitler won. Hitler supporters lost...just like everyone else.

Two...some kind of "real police reform" is coming soon. I doubt it will be established during the next administration, but lots of improvement will happen when Trump is out of office, in 2021 or in 2025.

Three...the divide between left and right will morph into a divide between what Trump supporters want and what sane Americans want. The divide will be more stark and more active. We are in for a turbulent 4 years no matter who "wins" the election.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

the divide between left and right will morph into a divide between what Trump supporters want and what sane Americans want. The divide will be more stark and more active.

Agreed. There is no possible middle ground here.

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@Frank Apisa,

The assumption here is that everyone who hates Trump is sane.

I agree that everyone who doesn't hate Trump is not sane... but just because it is not a firetruck doesn't mean is isn't red.

It is the people who hate Trump... and are insane... that scare me once Trump falls.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

Agreed. There is no possible middle ground here.

There is a middle ground. There are lots of people who reject both Trump and the excesses of the radical left. The fact that the radical left is so ugly is the reason that lots of people in the middle voted for Trump.

The problem is getting that middle ground a political voice. I don't think Biden is up to it.

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@maxdancona,

I'm starting to think there is no middle ground any more.

Trumpers will not accept a loss. Armed to the teeth, they'll set out into the streets and canvass for anyone they THINK voted the wrong way. There will be more riots, more killings and Biden will have no choice but to declare martial law.

The economy will never get a chance to recover. Any one with stocks will sell, banks will be overdrawn and alt right militants will make sure no one can get into a store.

And you're so worried about leftist policies, I wonder if you'll change your mind once faced with a gun pointed at your chest.

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@neptuneblue,

Quote:

And you're so worried about leftist policies, I wonder if you'll change your mind once faced with a gun pointed at your chest.

Of course I will, as long as you promise not to pull the trigger anyway. I am not that stubborn.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The assumption here is that everyone who hates Trump is sane.

I agree that everyone who doesn't hate Trump is not sane... but just because it is not a firetruck doesn't mean is isn't red.

It is the people who hate Trump... and are insane... that scare me once Trump falls.

Don't let them scare you, Max. The people on the left who are not nuts are more than willing to keep the people on the left who are...under control.

The problem with the right is not that most of them are nuts, but that the ones who are not totally nuts are unwilling to keep the ones who are under control.

But...your concern brings up something I've spoken to often. The American right has not always been nuts. The American right has, in the past, done a wonderful job of keeping the left in check. The American right is a MUCH NEEDED loyal opposition...and until Reagan came along to define government as "the problem"...it functioned in that capacity in a very helpful way.

American conservatism has got to get back to doing what it does well...being the loyal opposition...keeping the excesses of the left in check. But in order to do so, it has to come to the realization that it has no real ability to be the ruling element.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
Agreed. There is no possible middle ground here.

There is a middle ground. There are lots of people who reject both Trump and the excesses of the radical left. The fact that the radical left is so ugly is the reason that lots of people in the middle voted for Trump.

The problem is getting that middle ground a political voice. I don't think Biden is up to it.

See my comment above.

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What happens Post-Trump; Can we win the peace?

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