Rove was the source of the Plame leak... so it appears

Not to mention, she didn't go on tv and out herself.

Really? Can you show me the quote from the ruling where they make that finding?



See above.



Here you reveal, yet again, the limits of your understanding -- and show your propensity to jump to make a factual assumption. You also forget that I read the ruling before you did.

When I did, I certainly read about the ex parte, in camera presentation. Why do you feel that means the Appellate Court found her to be a "covert agent"? Are you that comfortable making logical leaps of faith that you can make that claim, unsubstantiated by the facts except as you assume them to be?

I should take this opportunity to remind you that you also assign meaning to the Supreme Court's refusal to grant certiorari to the Judith Miller case as having meaning it certainly did not have. You appear to be demonstrating a pattern.



They refer to her as "allegedly covert." Again, it would be helpful if you would cite to the relevant specific passages you feel are supportive of your position.



In this case it is you who appears to be arguing facts not in evidence. It is you, not I, who would be called up to the bench and censored.



lol. I find you to be anything but objective, and your argument in this regard is a "classic" case in point. You seem to like to play fast and loose with the facts.

Can you cite me to that finding, if kuvasz is not up to the challenge?

Larry Johnson did call you a lying shill Tico.. :wink:

Tico said:



And what, exactly, is your point, by making this statement?

I point you ... HERE, (read kuvasz' first sentence carefully), ... and then ... HERE.,


Cheers.

I didn't know that. Are we sure he's not partisan?

I guess that depends on the state, in Arizona, for instance, there is a certification issued by the bar called "Certified Family Law Specialist." In my experience, I have found that the most sucessful attorneys are ones who specialize mainly in one field. And even in a "specialized" field like criminal defense, many specialize even further i.e. White Collar, or DUI or Traffic, some do mostly misdmeanors some do only felonies. Most attorneys wind up, for one reason or another, in a different specialty than the one they set out to do. It is surprising that you spend so much time posting here during business hours. When I was involved in the field, most of the attorneys I spoke with were way too busy to waste time posting on a political forum, although they always loved to "waste time" talking about themselves.

This Larry Johnson? The Larry Johnson who wrote this NYT Op-Ed piece a few weeks before 9/11?




Yup, that Larry Johnson. Any wonder he's an "Ex-CIA Agent"?

Bwaaaaa-hahahahahaha.

Another point to ponder - notice how a whole gaggle of "Ex-CIA" types popped into The Plame Game following Porter Goss' housecleaning at the CIA?

Someone please help me out here. What in the world does Tico's career choice have to do with the topic of this thread?

Sumac and Kuvasz - please refrain from calling those with whom you disagree "stupid". It adds nothing to the discussion here and only demonstrates a certain immature frustration. Name calling is for two-year olds.

Chrissee - you might want to take your own advice in making personal remarks about others. You can't have it both ways.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1459065&sid=f6c1876c3feecc140c4d6721258fdc0c#1459065

Even if she was not "covert" there are other charges that can be made as I have since found out.

One thing is clear; there must be some reason for the CIA to recommend an investigation and for the grand jury to be carrying on an investigation that has lasted two years so far.

In some form Rove and other administration officials are tied up in this to have warranted so many questions concerning them and at the very least have been untruthful and unhelpful.

These people pursuing this are 'lawyers' too and I am sure they are just as up on the law as our good friend, tico. They would not be after this for so long if no laws could have been violated because the situation does not meet the tico threshold.

We also know that the WH has went out of their way these last two years to give the American people the impression that they were not involved by using "parsing" language which suggest that they have something to hide.

Those involved like Rove and Libby could have come clean about their involvement (in whatever form) when these questions started to coming to light if they had nothing to hide and their motivations for talking to reporters were so noble as to be setting the record straight concerning Wilson. But they obviously didn't.

(Which btw Wilson was right all along so their stated purpose is just so much hogwash.)

I think you guys should just give this one up to other side no matter how it turns out legally. The moment it was revealed that Rove was somehow involved after McCallen (however you spell his name) standing up there for two years assuring the American people that they were not, it was over for your side.

Everything that has since come out just puts your guys further in the hole on this one.

I am not so hopeful that this will turn things around and the American people will suddenly start voting democratic again, but this is one issue you guys have already lost in terms of credibility.

The Plane memo
From Bush Watch 7/22/05

Members of the Bush Administration who apparently read a "secret" memo from the the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), "secret" implying, according to CIA officials, that information in the memo about CIA officer "Valerie Wilson," the wife of Joe Wilson, was "classfied" and that her identity was "covert": the unnamed INR analyist who wrote the memo, Director of INR Carl W. Ford, Jr., Undersecretary of State Marc Grossman, and Secretary of State Colin Powell.

"The memo was delivered to Secretary of State Colin L. Powell on July 7, 2003, as he headed to Africa for a trip with President Bush aboard Air Force One. Several other administration officials were on the trip to Africa, including senior adviser Dan Bartlett, then-White House spokesman Ari Fleischer and others.

It is a federal crime, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, for a federal official to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert CIA official if the person knows the government is trying to keep it secret."

Those involved like Rove and Libby? Do we know how many have been called to testify before the Grand Jury? Do we have a list of names of those who have so far testified? Do we know all the facts of any of the testimony to date?

At this point in the investigation, as well as the turns the discussion on this thread have taken, my conclusion is that Rove is not so much hated by the Left as he is feared.

I also have a strong suspicion that the administration knows who leaked this, and they know this is going to blow up right in the Democrats'/MSM's faces. They're handling it by saying as little as possible, giving the Left just enough rope to seriously hang themselves. And, as the Left has proven so many times before, they're blindly desperate enough to step right into Rove's snare.

Time will tell.

Keep telling yourself that, oh empty-headed one. The fact is that this whole thing is bad for the WH. Real bad. The fact that more leaks are coming out about this is bad as well.

The key to this entire thing is Fitzgerald. This isn't just some regular scandal; he WILL be coming to a conclusion at some point

Notice that Tico and Timber... are both on the attack. Tico does attempt to play some defense through legal terms but Timber has no clue whatsoever how to do that, so he goes right back to attacking character rather than defending the actions of his elected leaders.

Tico


Larry Johnson? He is partisan; a Republican.

Cycloptichorn

Cyclopitchorn


The Republican Party chauvinist apologists have no imagination other than to dutifully repeat the Republican National Committee's smear campaign talking points to smear Ambasador Wilson and his wife Valerie.
Classic Rove campaign dirty tricks.

There is not a patriot among them.

BBB

JW, seems rove stepped in his own snare..........

"Rove has not disputed that he told Cooper that Wilson's wife worked for the agency, but has said through his lawyer that he did not mention her by name".

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/wire/sns-ap-democrats-cia-leak,1,5328343.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

In Rove's first interview with the FBI, he did not mention a telephone conversation he had with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper, according to lawyers involved in the case. Cooper has since said that he called Rove specifically to discuss the matter.

Rove "has, from the beginning, been candid, forthcoming and accurate," Luskin said. "There has never been any moment when the government, prosecutors or investigators have suggested that they thought he was being anything but truthful or cooperative."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-leak23jul23,0,3075904.story?track=tothtml

The left "afraid" of Rove? <not likely>

Okay. After reading Kuvasz' exhaustive analysis here, I am going to disagree with Kuvasz and actually agree with Tico on one point only.

There is no legal ruling, yet, that Valerie Wilson was in fact a covert agent. Not yet.

There have only been rulings that reporters can be compelled to testify at a Grand Jury investigation because the investigator, Fitzgerald, has demonstrated that there is a good chance that the crime of revealing the identity of a covert agent has been committed.

I think the issue revolves around the following statement from the Appellate Court.


The Appellate Court is not categorically saying that Valerie Wilson was a covert operative for sure, and there is sufficient evidence to proceed with an inquiry as to whether or not her identity was revealed illegally.

What the Appellate Court is saying is that there is enough evidence to proceed with an inquiry into the question of whether or not the crime of revealing illegally the identity of a covert agent has been committed.

There is nothing in the ruling which says that anybody charged with this crime, (if they are), is not free to argue that the crime has not been committed because the prosecutor cannot show that Valerie Wilson was actually covert in the first place.

The Appellate Division has only ruled, in my opinion, that Fitzgerald has presented enough evidence that Valerie Wilson was covert for the inquiry to go forward.

That being said, I do believe that a lot of evidence has come forward which would allow us to deduce that Mrs. Wilson was very probably covert.

A) Unless Fitzgerald is mixed up, I would think the first thing he would do is check out to see if he was satisfied that La Wilson was covert in the first place. Otherwise, what would be the point?

B) If Wilson was not covered by the law, why did Rove and Libby play games concealing who made the statements to reporters. Why didn't Rove just call a press conference and say, "I made the statements, and I don't have a thing to worry about because she was not covert. So you guys don't have a story." Instead, Rove dodged around for weeks.

C) The fact that the investigation is now going into obstruction of justice charges. Why would anybody try to obstruct an investigation, if they honestly felt Mrs Wilson was not even covert in the first palce?

Neither Rove nor Libby is acting like someone who thinks they have done nothing wrong.

So I think we can deduce a strong likelihood that Mrs. Wilson was covert. But a definitive ruling by a judge on that matter? So far, no.

Waxman: 11 Security Breaches in Plame Case
Waxman: 11 Security Breaches in Plame Case
Author: Rep. Henry Waxman
Published on July 22, 2005, 14:25

The disclosure of the covert identity of Valerie Plame Wilson in a July 14, 2003, column by Robert Novak has triggered a criminal investigation and led to calls for congressional investigations. The Novak column, however, appears to be only one of multiple leaks of Ms. Wilson's identity. A new fact sheet released today by Rep. Waxman documents that there appear to be at least 11 separate instances in which Administration officials disclosed information about Ms. Wilson's identity and association with the CIA.

New Fact Sheet Details Multiple Administration Security Breaches Involving Valerie Plame Wilson:

On July 14, 2003, columnist Robert Novak revealed that the wife of Ambassador Joseph Wilson, Valerie Plame Wilson, was a covert CIA agent. This disclosure of classified information has triggered a criminal investigation by a Special Counsel and led to calls for congressional investigations.

The Novak column, however, appears to be only one of multiple leaks of Ms. Wilson's identity. As this fact sheet documents, there appear to be at least 11 separate instances in which Administration officials disclosed information about Ms. Wilson's identity and association with the CIA.

Under Executive Order 12958, the White House is required to investigate any reports of security breaches and take "prompt corrective action," such as suspending the security clearances of those involved. Unlike prosecutions for criminal violations, which require "knowing" and "intentional" disclosures, the executive order covers a wider range of unauthorized breaches, including the "negligent" release of classified information. There is no evidence that the White House has complied with its obligation to investigate any of the 11 reported instances of security breaches relating to Ms. Wilson or to apply administrative sanctions to those involved.

The Disclosures of Valerie Wilson's Identity:

1. The Disclosure by Karl Rove to Columnist Robert Novak
In a column dated July 14, 2003, Robert Novak first reported that Valerie Plame Wilson was "an agency operative on weapons of mass destruction."1 Mr. Novak cited "two senior administration officials" as his sources.2 According to multiple news reports, one of these two sources was Karl Rove, the Deputy White House Chief of Staff and the President's top political advisor.3 During a phone call on July 8, 2003, Mr. Rove confirmed for Mr. Novak that Ms. Wilson worked at the CIA. During this conversation, Mr. Novak referred to Ms. Wilson "by her maiden name, Valerie Plame," and said he had heard she was involved in "the circumstances in which her husband … traveled to Africa."4 Mr. Rove responded, "I heard that, too."5 Mr. Novak's name also appeared "on a White House call log as having telephoned Mr. Rove in the week before the publication of the July 2003 column."6

2. The Disclosure by a "Senior Administration Official" to Columnist Robert Novak:

In addition to his communications with Mr. Rove, Mr. Novak learned about Ms. Wilson's identity through communications with a second "senior administration official."7 Mr. Novak's second source has not yet been publicly identified. Mr. Novak has stated, however, that the source provided him with Ms. Wilson's identity. As he stated: "I didn't dig it out, it was given to me."8 He added: "They thought it was significant, they gave me the name and I used it."9

3. The Disclosure by Karl Rove to TIME Reporter Matt Cooper:

During a phone call on July 11, 2003, Mr. Rove revealed to TIME reporter Matt Cooper that Ms. Wilson worked at the CIA on weapons of mass destruction.10 Mr. Cooper reported that this "was the first time I had heard anything about Wilson's wife."11 Mr. Rove provided this information on "deep background," said that "things would be declassified soon," and stated, "I've already said too much."12

4. The Disclosure by Scooter Libby to TIME Reporter Matt Cooper:

During a phone call on July 12, 2003, TIME reporter Matt Cooper asked the Vice President's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby "if he had heard anything about Wilson's wife sending her husband to Niger." 13 Mr. Libby replied, "Yeah, I've heard that too," or words to that effect.14 Mr. Libby provided this information "on background."15

5. The Disclosure by an "Administration Official" to Washington Post Reporter Walter Pincus:

On July 12, 2003, an "administration official" told Washington Post reporter Walter Pincus that "Wilson's trip to Niger was set up as a boondoggle by his CIA-employed wife."16 Mr. Pincus has not publicly identified his source, but has stated that it "was not Libby."17

6. The Disclosure by a "Top White House Official" to an Unidentified Reporter:

In addition making disclosures to Mr. Novak, Mr. Cooper, and Mr. Pincus, White House officials may have had conversations about Ms. Wilson with three other reporters about Ms. Wilson's identity. According to the Washington Post, a "senior administration official" confirmed that "before Novak's column ran on July 14, 2003, two top White House officials called at least six Washington journalists and disclosed the identity and occupation of Wilson's wife."18 According to this official, "Clearly, it was meant purely and simply for revenge."19 Press reports suggest that one of these unidentified reporters may be NBC correspondent Andrea Mitchell.20

7. The Disclosure by a "Top White House Official" to an Unidentified Reporter:

In addition making disclosures to Mr. Novak, Mr. Cooper, and Mr. Pincus, White House officials may have had conversations about Ms. Wilson with three other reporters about Ms. Wilson's identity. According to the Washington Post, a "senior administration official" confirmed that "before Novak's column ran on July 14, 2003, two top White House officials called at least six Washington journalists and disclosed the identity and occupation of Wilson's wife."21 According to this official, "Clearly, it was meant purely and simply for revenge."22 Press reports suggest that one of these unidentified reporters may be NBC Meet the Press host Tim Russert.23

8. The Disclosure by a "Top White House Official" to an Unidentified Reporter:

In addition making disclosures to Mr. Novak, Mr. Cooper, and Mr. Pincus, White House officials may have had conversations about Ms. Wilson with three other reporters about Ms. Wilson's identity. According to the Washington Post, a "senior administration official" confirmed that "before Novak's column ran on July 14, 2003, two top White House officials called at least six Washington journalists and disclosed the identity and occupation of Wilson's wife."24 According to this official, "Clearly, it was meant purely and simply for revenge."25 Press reports suggest that one of these unidentified reporters may be MSNBC Hardball host Chris Matthews.26

9. The Disclosure by an Unidentified Source to Wall Street Journal Reporter David Cloud:

On October 17, 2003, Wall Street Journal reporter David Cloud reported that an internal State Department memo prepared by U.S. intelligence personnel "details a meeting in early 2002 where CIA officer Valerie Plame and other intelligence officials gathered to brainstorm about how to verify reports that Iraq had sought uranium yellowcake from Niger."27 This "classified" document had "limited circulation," according to "two people familiar with the memo."28

10. The Disclosure by an Unidentified Source to James Guckert of Talon News:

On October 28, 2003, Talon News posted on its website an interview with Ambassador Joseph Wilson in which the questioner asked: "An internal government memo prepared by U.S. intelligence personnel details a meeting in early 2002 where your wife, a member of the agency or clandestine service working on Iraqi weapons issues, suggested that you could be sent to investigate the reports. Do you dispute that?"29 Talon News is tied to a group called GOP USA30 and is operated by Texas Republican Robert Eberle.31 Its only reporter, James Guckert (also known as Jeff Gannon), resigned when it was revealed that he gained access to the White House using a false name after his press credentials were rejected by House and Senate press galleries.32 In a March 2004 interview with his own news service, Mr. Guckert stated that the classified document was "easily accessible."33 In a February 11, 2005, interview with Wolf Blitzer of CNN, Mr. Guckert said the FBI interviewed him about "how I knew or received a copy of a confidential CIA memo," but he refused to answer FBI questions because of his status as a "journalist."34 A week later, Mr. Guckert changed his account, claiming he "was given no special information by the White House or by anybody else."35

11. The Disclosure by a "Senior Administration Official" to Washington Post Reporters Mike Allen and Dana Milbank:

On December 26, 2003, Washington Post reporters Mike Allen and Dana Milbank reported on details about the classified State Department memo, writing that it was authored by "a State Department official who works for its Bureau of Intelligence and Research."36 The Post story was attributed to "a senior administration official who has seen" the memo.37 The Post also reported that the CIA was "angry about the circulation of a still-classified document to conservative news outlets" and that the CIA "believes that people in the administration continue to release classified information to damage the figures at the center of the controversy, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV and his wife, Valerie Plame."38

NOTES

1 Robert Novak, The Mission to Niger, Chicago Sun-Times (July 14, 2003).
2 Id.
3 Rove Reportedly Held Phone Talk on CIA Officer, New York Times (July 15, 2005). See also Rove Confirmed Plame Indirectly, Lawyer Says, Washington Post (July 15, 2005).
4 Id.
5 Id.
6 Rove Confirmed Plame Indirectly, Lawyer Says, Washington Post (July 15, 2005).
7 Robert Novak, The Mission to Niger, Chicago Sun-Times (July 14, 2003).
8 Columnist Blows CIA Agent's Cover, Newsday (July 22, 2003).
9 Id.
10 Matt Cooper, What I Told the Grand Jury, TIME (July 25, 2005).
11 Id.
12 Id.
13 Id.
14 Id.
15 Id.
16 The When and How of Leak Being Probed, Washington Post (Nov. 26, 2004).
17 Id.
18 Bush Administration Is Focus of Inquiry; CIA Agent's Identity Was Leaked to Media, Washington Post (Sept. 28, 2003).
19 Id.
20 Secrets and Leaks, Newsweek (Oct. 13, 2003) (stating that she "heard in the White House that people were touting the Novak column and that that was the real story").
21 Bush Administration Is Focus of Inquiry; CIA Agent's Identity Was Leaked to Media, Washington Post (Sept. 28, 2003).
22 Id.
23 Reporter Held in Contempt in CIA Leak Case, Washington Post (Aug. 10, 2004) (describing a July 2003 telephone conversation between Mr. Russert and Mr. Libby).
24 Bush Administration Is Focus of Inquiry; CIA Agent's Identity Was Leaked to Media, Washington Post (Sept. 28, 2003).
25 Id.
26 Secrets and Leaks, Newsweek (Oct. 13, 2003) (reportedly stating to Mr. Wilson, "I just got off the phone with Karl Rove, who said your wife was fair game").
27 Memo May Aid Leak Probe, Wall Street Journal (Oct. 17, 2003).
28 Id.
29 Leaks Probe Is Gathering Momentum, Washington Post (Dec. 26, 2003). See also Senate Intel Report Discredits Wilson's Claims About Iraq, Niger, Talon News (July 13, 2004) (confirming that Talon reported on the memo in October 2003).
30 Leaks Probe Is Gathering Momentum, Washington Post (Dec. 26, 2003).
31 Democrats Want Investigation of Reporter Using Fake Name, New York Times (Feb. 11, 2005).
32 Id.
33 Id.
34 Rumsfeld Visits Iraq, CNN (Feb. 11, 2005).
35 Anderson Cooper 360, CNN (Feb. 18, 2005). See also Web Site Owner Says He Knew of Reporter's 2 Identities, New York Times (Feb. 20, 2005) (claiming that referring to the memo as though he had it was "merely an interview technique").
36 Leaks Probe Is Gathering Momentum, Washington Post (Dec. 26, 2003).
37 Id.
38 Id.