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Rove was the source of the Plame leak... so it appears

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 08:46 am
Decreased activity on this thread?!

This is zooming along like a freight train. Hard to keep up.
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kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 09:32 am
kelticwizard wrote:
Damn. bumbleBeeBoogie's link stole my thunder. But I 'm going t say it anyway.

According to Foxfyre's link.
Gurwitz wrote:
We now know, from Time magazine journalist Matthew Cooper's own words, that Rove did not disclose the name of a covert CIA officer. What Rove did tell Cooper was that former Ambassador and Kerry campaign adviser Joseph Wilson's wife had a hand in sending Wilson to investigate claims Saddam Hussein wanted to buy uranium yellowcake from Niger.




So then why all this secrecy? Why didn't Libby call a press conference and Rove call a press conference and say, "That's right. It was me. I said Valerie Plame was the one who got Joseph Wilson the unpaid assignment to that pit, Niger, and I stand by the story. I told this reporter, I told that reporter, I told all those reporters. Me. I did it. And there's nothing wrong with it because she isn't a covert agent.

So whatcha gonna do about it, huh? Nyaaah Nyaaah Nyaaah.

So why didn't they do that? Why didn't we know the identity of Rove for weeks, and of Libby for even longer. Why all this "Who, me?" if nobody has anything to worry about?


the FBI does take lying very seriously.

Just ask former Louisiana Insurance Commissioner Jim Brown. He served 6 months in a federal prison for leaving out a couple of details while being interviewed by agents in a case not even related to his department.

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southcentral/2003/04/01/27596.htm

Rove could actually end up in prison over this.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 09:34 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Got nothing else to say about their letter, Tico?

About how it is dangerous and wrong to say that someone isn't undercover, just because they work at a desk?


I'll accept arguendo their position that someone isn't necessarily NOT undercover just because they work at a desk at Langley. I'm not sure what the criteria is to determine whether someone is "undercover" or not. The letter signers seem sure, as evidenced by their remark: "... we are confident that Valerie Plame was working in a cover status."

The point I was trying to make is if it is indeed "dangerous" and "wrong," and persons working desk jobs at Langley need the protection of the law, then the law ought to provide such protection. If revealing the status of these desk analysts should be against the law, but the present law doesn't make it unlawful, then the present law should be changed. Don't you agree?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 09:35 am
I hope you're right, but the likelyhood still remains rather slim -IMHO. The Bush administration seems to be made from teflon.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 09:42 am
Yes, I do agree, Tico. I'm not sure how much of this is covered by the non-disclosure agreements that go along with security clearances, but I agree, the laws against these things should be clearer.

And I didn't know the word 'arguendo' until right now. Thanks! I love learning new things.

Cycloptichorn
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 09:48 am
Let us not forget that Time magazine reported a senior Administration official as saying that Valerie Wilson was covered by the law.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 09:57 am
Remember, what one senior Administration has been led to believe about Valerie Wilson and the identies law probably applies to the Administration as a whole. Mistaken or not. They do talk about these things together, you know-identities laws and what you can and cannot say.

And if that possibly mistaken belief that Valerie Wilson was covered by the identities law led Rove, Libby and possibly others to mislead investigators, that is a whole issue all by itself.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 10:25 am
kelticwizard wrote:
Let us not forget that Time magazine reported a senior Administration official as saying that Valerie Wilson was covered by the law.


What would be the importance of remembering that?


Let's also not forget that Joe Wilson reportedly said his wife was not a covert agent at the time of the disclosure.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 10:47 am
Not really. One is much more specific than the other. I forget Wilson's exact words (want to find them?) but what I remember is that they could easily mean that she wasn't acting as a covert agent at the time -- which doesn't cover whether she had been at any time in the five years previously.

Meanwhile, the Time magazine cite is very specific about her having been a covert agent at the time "for the purposes of the Intelligence Identities Protection law."
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 11:38 am
sozobe wrote:
Not really. One is much more specific than the other. I forget Wilson's exact words (want to find them?) but what I remember is that they could easily mean that she wasn't acting as a covert agent at the time -- which doesn't cover whether she had been at any time in the five years previously.

Meanwhile, the Time magazine cite is very specific about her having been a covert agent at the time "for the purposes of the Intelligence Identities Protection law."


Assuming arguendo that is the case, I'll ask again: What would be the importance of remembering that? Those that like to make logical leaps of faith (such as assigning meaning that doesn't exist to the Supreme Court declining to take the Judith Miller appeal) might like to make hay of this anonymous report, the basis of which is uncertain, but it really means nothing in this context. Whether she was or was not a "covert agent" under the IIPA has yet to be determined.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 11:49 am
Well, it means something that a magazine of the stature of Time would find the account of a US official who is in a position to know credible enough to print the comment in their magazine.

If the comment is true, it means a great deal.

Not conclusive, no, never said it was. But I wouldn't go so far as to say it means nothing, either. Legally, perhaps. In terms of laypeople trying to figure out what really happened, it's more meaningful than Wilson's comment -- which was the original comparison.
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kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 11:52 am
Ticomaya wrote:
kelticwizard wrote:
Let us not forget that Time magazine reported a senior Administration official as saying that Valerie Wilson was covered by the law.


What would be the importance of remembering that?


Let's also not forget that Joe Wilson reportedly said his wife was not a covert agent at the time of the disclosure.


let us also not forget that your remark has no basis in fact, but is a twisted, right wing interpretation of what Wilson actually said.

http://mediamatters.org/static/video/wolf-200507150003.wmv
From the July 14 edition of CNN's Wolf Blitzer Reports:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200507150003

Quote:
BLITZER: But the other argument that's been made against you is that you've sought to capitalize on this extravaganza, having that photo shoot with your wife [in the January 2004 Vanity Fair magazine], who was a clandestine officer of the CIA, and that you've tried to enrich yourself writing this book and all of that.

What do you make of those accusations, which are serious accusations, as you know, that have been leveled against you?

WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.

BLITZER: But she hadn't been a clandestine officer for some time before that?

WILSON: That's not anything that I can talk about. And, indeed, I'll go back to what I said earlier, the CIA believed that a possible crime had been committed, and that's why they referred it to the Justice Department.

She was not a clandestine officer at the time that that article in Vanity Fair appeared.

And as Media Matters for America has documented, multiple press outlets reported that Plame was an undercover CIA operative at the time Novak wrote his column.

Note: After this item was written, but before it was posted, the AP corrected its error. New versions of the article read:

In an interview on CNN earlier Thursday before the latest revelation, Wilson kept up his criticism of the White House, saying Rove's conduct was an "outrageous abuse of power ... certainly worthy of frog-marching out of the White House."

Wilson also said "my wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity."

In an interview Friday, Wilson said his comment was meant to reflect that his wife lost her ability to be a covert agent because of the leak, not that she had stopped working for the CIA beforehand.

Though the AP ran a correction, other news outlets had already repeated its mistake. CNN's Ed Henry told viewers that "Wilson himself suggested that she was not undercover." The Drudge Report link to the AP story suggested the same thing, and numerous other news outlets picked up the AP article.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 11:58 am
kuvasz wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
kelticwizard wrote:
Let us not forget that Time magazine reported a senior Administration official as saying that Valerie Wilson was covered by the law.


What would be the importance of remembering that?


Let's also not forget that Joe Wilson reportedly said his wife was not a covert agent at the time of the disclosure.


let us also not forget that your remark has no basis in fact, but is a twisted, right wing interpretation of what Wilson actually said.


Makes me wonder what the Time quote is.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 12:02 pm
Tico:

The importance is three fold.

First, there is a debate going on whether she was a covert agent or not. the fact that a senior Administration official seems to think so gives added weight to the idea that she was.

Two. The quote illustrates that within the Administration there was belief that Mrs. Wilson was a covert agent. This might have a bearing on any part of the statute dealing with requirements to know the status of the person you are revealing. If one high ranking member of the Administration believes Mrs Wilson was, there is a high probablitlity that other high ranking Administration officials felt the same way.

Three. Even if it is determined that Mrs. Wilson was not a covert agent for the purposes of the identities act, this could provide a motivation for lying and obstructing the investigation of Fitzgerald. This quote makes it more likely that Rove and Libby thought Plame was covered under the law. This can be important in deciding whether either one or both are guilty of obstructing justice or lying to investigators.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 12:23 pm
kelticwizard wrote:
Tico:

The importance is three fold.

First, there is a debate going on whether she was a covert agent or not. the fact that a senior Administration official seems to think so gives added weight to the idea that she was.


I'll bet there is a Senior Administration Official who thinks she is NOT a covert agent. What does that do for us?

Quote:
Two. The quote illustrates that within the Administration there was belief that Mrs. Wilson was a covert agent. This might have a bearing on any part of the statute dealing with requirements to know the status of the person you are revealing. If one high ranking member of the Administration believes Mrs Wilson was, there is a high probablitlity that other high ranking Administration officials felt the same way.


But again, we don't know who this "Senior Administration Official" is, or any of the context of how or when they reached their conclusion ... do we? Not to mention the basis for their conclusion.

Quote:
Three. Even if it is determined that Mrs. Wilson was not a covert agent for the purposes of the identities act, this could provide a motivation for lying and obstructing the investigation of Fitzgerald. This quote makes it more likely that Rove and Libby thought Plame was covered under the law. This can be important in deciding whether either one or both are guilty of obstructing justice or lying to investigators.


It doesn't mean anything of the sort, unless you are attributing the beliefs of some unknown "Senior Administration Official," via osmosis or some other means, to Karl Rove. You can't possibly make a credulous argument that because some other official holds a belief, the basis for which is unknown, that Ms. Plame is or was a "covert agent," that somehow inplicates Rove. It's utter nonsense. I do have enough faith in Fitzgerald to not think he will try and draw that conclusion.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 12:28 pm
Bush oppointed federal prosecutor may have evidence of federal crime on Rove Laughing
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 12:28 pm
kuvasz wrote:
WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.


perhaps he could have said "no longer a clandestine officer". that would have been iron clad.

but in the context of the discussion, you would have to deliberately want to misunderstand what the guy meant.

when i was a senior in high school, we had new neighbors move in next door. it turned out the guy was a field agent. (no more blowin' doobs in the back yard. damn.)

he didn't tell us much, but occassionally a strange man/men would be seen leaving their house in morning, when the guy was supposed to be out of town. at first my folks thought that the wife was foolin' around till the guy used his own car on an assignment.

he probably should have worn a big sign around his neck, reading;

" i am a secret agent. shhhhh. don't tell anyone".

let that be a lesson to ms. plame.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 12:30 pm
Tico said:

Quote:
Whether she was or was not a "covert agent" under the IIPA has yet to be determined.


I want to make sure that I understand where you are headed with this, so I am asking for clarification.

Just what would determine it?

Are you suggesting that it would take the examination of a court to determine it?
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Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 12:42 pm
Quote:
I'll bet there is a Senior Administration Official who thinks she is NOT a covert agent. What does that do for us?



I bet there is not. Prove me wrong.
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Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 12:43 pm
sumac wrote:
Tico said:

Quote:
Whether she was or was not a "covert agent" under the IIPA has yet to be determined.


I want to make sure that I understand where you are headed with this, so I am asking for clarification.


I already know. He likes to waste people's time.
0 Replies
 
 

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