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Rove was the source of the Plame leak... so it appears

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:27 am
I do not accept that the OpinionJOurnal piece is proved to be lying nor does any other major media outlet. I think some of the research cited to dispute it is probably seriously lacking in both objectivity and substance.

WSJ: Joe Wilson's Story Has Now Been Discredited

Editorial in the WSJ (July 20, 2004):

After U.S. and British intelligence reports exposed his falsehoods in the last 10 days, Joe Wilson is finally defending himself. We're therefore glad to return to this story one more time, because there are some larger lessons here about the law, and for the Beltway media and Bush White House.

Mr. Wilson's defense, in essence, is that the "Republican-written" Senate Intelligence Committee report is a partisan hatchet job. We could forgive people for being taken in by this, considering the way the Committee's ranking Democrat, Jay Rockefeller, has been spinning it over the past week. But the fact is that the three most damning conclusions are contained not in Chairman Pat Roberts's "Additional Views," but in the main body of the report approved by Mr. Rockefeller and seven other Democrats.

Number one: The winner of last year's Award for Truth Telling from the Nation magazine foundation didn't tell the truth when he wrote that his wife, CIA officer Valerie Plame, "had nothing to do with" his selection for the Niger mission. Mr. Wilson is now pretending there is some kind of important distinction between whether she "recommended" or "proposed" him for the trip.

Mr. Wilson had been denying any involvement at all on Ms. Plame's part, in order to suggest that her identity was disclosed by a still-unknown Administration official out of pure malice. If instead an Administration official cited nepotism truthfully in order to explain the oddity of Mr. Wilson's selection for the Niger mission, then there was no underlying crime. Motive is crucial under the controlling statute.


The 1982 Intelligence Identities Protection Act was written in the wake of the Philip Agee scandal to protect the CIA from deliberate subversion, not to protect the identities of agents and their spouses who choose to enter into a national political debate. In short, the entire leak probe now looks like a familiar Beltway case of criminalizing political differences. Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald should fold up his tent.

Number two: Joe Wilson didn't tell the truth about how he supposedly came to realize that it was "highly doubtful" there was anything to the story he'd been sent to Niger to investigate. He told everyone that he'd recognized as obvious forgeries the documents purporting to show an Iraq-Niger uranium deal. But the forged documents to which he referred didn't reach U.S. intelligence until eight months after his trip. Mr. Wilson has said that he "misspoke" -- multiple times, apparently -- on this issue.

Number three: Joe Wilson was also not telling the truth when he said that his final report to the CIA had "debunked" the Niger story. The Senate Intelligence report -- again, the bipartisan portion of it -- says Mr. Wilson's debrief was interpreted as providing "some confirmation of foreign government service reporting" that Iraq had sought uranium in Niger. That's because Niger's former Prime Minister had told Mr. Wilson he interpreted a 1999 visit from an Iraqi trade delegation as showing an interest in uranium.
http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/6361.html

Also check these

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3061665.stm

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,997938,00.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200407121105.asp

http://intelligence.senate.gov/iraqreport2.pdf
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:31 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Fitzgerald, in one of his rare statements about the case, has said that he isn't interested in prosecuting reporters at all. So I highly doubt that angle will stick, Tico


He will likely prosecute anyone guilty of a crime in his jurisdiction -- reporter or not.
0 Replies
 
pngirouard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:44 am
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:58 am
Just keeping it honest. Bear in mind that Valerie Plame's name was not all that secret but to this day Novak says that nobody in the White House revealed it if they even knew it. It was posted by Wilson on his own website however and also in his "Who's Who" entry. This continues to be a tempest in a teapot stirred by anti-Bush people who so desperately want to hang something on the current adminsitration.

The CIA leak
Robert Novak (archive)

October 1, 2003 | Print | Send

WASHINGTON -- I had thought I never again would write about retired diplomat Joseph Wilson's CIA-employee wife, but feel constrained to do so now that repercussions of my July 14 column have reached the front pages of major newspapers and led off network news broadcasts. My role and the role of the Bush White House have been distorted and need explanation.

The leak now under Justice Department investigation is described by former Ambassador Wilson and critics of President Bush's Iraq policy as a reprehensible effort to silence them. To protect my own integrity and credibility, I would like to stress three points. First, I did not receive a planned leak. Second, the CIA never warned me that the disclosure of Wilson's wife working at the agency would endanger her or anybody else. Third, it was not much of a secret.

The current Justice investigation stems from a routine, mandated probe of all CIA leaks, but follows weeks of agitation. Wilson, after telling me in July that he would say nothing about his wife, has made investigation of the leak his life's work -- aided by the relentless Sen. Charles Schumer of New York. These efforts cannot be separated from the massive political assault on President Bush.

This story began July 6 when Wilson went public and identified himself as the retired diplomat who had reported negatively to the CIA in 2002 on alleged Iraq efforts to buy uranium yellowcake from Niger. I was curious why a high-ranking official in President Bill Clinton's National Security Council (NSC) was given this assignment. Wilson had become a vocal opponent of President Bush's policies in Iraq after contributing to Al Gore in the last election cycle and John Kerry in this one.

During a long conversation with a senior administration official, I asked why Wilson was assigned the mission to Niger. He said Wilson had been sent by the CIA's counterproliferation section at the suggestion of one of its employees, his wife. It was an offhand revelation from this official, who is no partisan gunslinger. When I called another official for confirmation, he said: "Oh, you know about it." The published report that somebody in the White House failed to plant this story with six reporters and finally found me as a willing pawn is simply untrue.

At the CIA, the official designated to talk to me denied that Wilson's wife had inspired his selection but said she was delegated to request his help. He asked me not to use her name, saying she probably never again will be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause "difficulties" if she travels abroad. He never suggested to me that Wilson's wife or anybody else would be endangered. If he had, I would not have used her name. I used it in the sixth paragraph of my column because it looked like the missing explanation of an otherwise incredible choice by the CIA for its mission.

How big a secret was it? It was well known around Washington that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA. Republican activist Clifford May wrote Monday, in National Review Online, that he had been told of her identity by a non-government source before my column appeared and that it was common knowledge. Her name, Valerie Plame, was no secret either, appearing in Wilson's "Who's Who in America" entry.

A big question is her duties at Langley. I regret that I referred to her in my column as an "operative," a word I have lavished on hack politicians for more than 40 years. While the CIA refuses to publicly define her status, the official contact says she is "covered" -- working under the guise of another agency. However, an unofficial source at the Agency says she has been an analyst, not in covert operations.

The Justice Department investigation was not requested by CIA Director George Tenet. Any leak of classified information is routinely passed by the Agency to Justice, averaging one a week. This investigative request was made in July shortly after the column was published. Reported only last weekend, the request ignited anti-Bush furor.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20031001.shtml
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 12:09 pm
The opinionjournal piece has been proven to be lying because they report the findings of the Addendum as if they were the findings of the actual commitee. This is known as 'lying.' You don't believe this because it contradicts your worldview, but that is a failure within yourself, and not a failure of the facts, Foxfyre.

It doesn't matter at all how many times you post pieces by people trying to spin that Plame 'wasn't covert.' The front company she worked for most certainly WAS covert, and that was outed by Novak as well.

But, continue your smear of Wilson and denials of what is happening around you; it just gets funnier as time goes on.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 12:13 pm
Okay. If reporting what virtually every media source is now reporting is 'smearing', (your word, not mine) I shall continue doing so to prove my point as long as you anti-Bush people continue to use erroneous and downright dishonest sources to prove yours. I've posted several links to prove mine including the Senate report itself.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 12:16 pm
kuvasz wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Cite your source Cyclop.


fox, i already did, days ago. but again,

So many places to start, but in this case the beginning might as well be this, viz., the Report of Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, because that is the document being used to attack Joe Wilson's veracity and thus undermine his New York Times article of June 6, 2003, which itself was an attack on the truthfulness of the Bush Administration in the run-up to the Iraq War.

Wilson's article provoked a retaliatory response from the Bush administration that "his [Wilson's] wife is fair game," according to Chris Mathews relating a phone call from Karl Rove. A subsequent leak to the press (at least six press members were contacted) provided information as to the CIA position of Wilson's wife. Her job and her employment with the CIA were considered covert.

Because her covert status was revealed in the press it was considered by the CIA to be a matter to be investigated by the Dept of Justice. The Grand Jury investigation is centering upon White House employees having leaked the confidential information to the press.

So, proceeding, first, the actual words in the Report that are the reference point for the attacks on Wilson's honesty instead of wilful mutant didactions found strewn all over FreeperLand that have also appeared here.

From an appendix to the actual Report, entitled "Additional View" There are nine "Additional Views" sign by from one to six Senators. This one is signed by three Senators.

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/13jul20041400/www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/pdf/s108-301/roberts.pdf

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/iraq.html

Quote:


Yes indeed, harsh words for Mr. Wilson from three of the US Senators on that committee.

However, it should be noted that there were eighteen members of the US Senate on that committee, and all nine Democratic members along with six Republican US Senators refused to sign on to the aforementioned interpretation of the "facts."

Again, lay side by side this minority viewpoint with Wilson's rebuttal at Salon.com and his subsequent reply to the article in the Post and you can see why 15 US Senators did not sign on to what the minority view was stating. I could understand using this minority view if it was a majority view to attack Wilson, but is it not standard fare to use what the majority is saying is true instead of a minority view? When did we start saying that we all agree that what 1 out of 6 say is the way it is? Why were five out of six Serantors wrong?

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2004/07/16/wilson_letter/index_np.htm

Quote:
July 15, 2004

The Hon. Pat Roberts, Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

The Hon. Jay Rockefeller, Vice Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

Dear Sen. Roberts and Sen. Rockefeller,

I read with great surprise and consternation the Niger portion of Sens. Roberts, Bond and Hatch's additional comments to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee's Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Assessment on Iraq. I am taking this opportunity to clarify some of the issues raised in these comments.

First conclusion: "The plan to send the former ambassador to Niger was suggested by the former ambassador's wife, a CIA employee."

That is not true. The conclusion is apparently based on one anodyne quote from a memo Valerie Plame, my wife, sent to her superiors that says, "My husband has good relations with the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." There is no suggestion or recommendation in that statement that I be sent on the trip. Indeed it is little more than a recitation of my contacts and bona fides. The conclusion is reinforced by comments in the body of the report that a CPD [Counterproliferation Division] reports officer stated that "the former ambassador's wife 'offered up his name'" (page 39) and a State Department intelligence and research officer stated that the "meeting was 'apparently convened by [the former ambassador's] wife who had the idea to dispatch him to use his contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue."

In fact, Valerie was not in the meeting at which the subject of my trip was raised. Neither was the CPD reports officer. After having escorted me into the room, she [Valerie] departed the meeting to avoid even the appearance of conflict of interest. It was at that meeting where the question of my traveling to Niger was broached with me for the first time and came only after a thorough discussion of what the participants did and did not know about the subject. My bona fides justifying the invitation to the meeting were the trip I had previously taken to Niger to look at other uranium-related questions as well as 20 years living and working in Africa, and personal contacts throughout the Niger government. Neither the CPD reports officer nor the State analyst were in the chain of command to know who, or how, the decision was made.

The interpretations attributed to them are not the full story. In fact, it is my understanding that the reports officer has a different conclusion about Valerie's role than the one offered in the "additional comments." I urge the committee to reinterview the officer and publicly publish his statement.

It is unfortunate that the report failed to include the CIA's position on this matter. If the staff had done so it would undoubtedly have been given the same evidence as provided to Newsday reporters Tim Phelps and Knut Royce in July 2003. They reported on July 22 that:

"A senior intelligence officer confirmed that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked 'alongside' the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger. But he said she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment. 'They [the officers who did ask Wilson to check the uranium story] were aware of who she was married to, which is not surprising,' he said. 'There are people elsewhere in government who are trying to make her look like she was the one who was cooking this up, for some reason,' he said. 'I can't figure out what it could be.' 'We paid his [Wilson's] airfare. But to go to Niger is not exactly a benefit. Most people you'd have to pay big bucks to go there,' the senior intelligence official said. Wilson said he was reimbursed only for expenses." (Newsday article "Columnist Blows CIA Agent's Cover," dated July 22, 2003).

In fact, on July 13 of this year, David Ensor, the CNN correspondent, did call the CIA for a statement of its position and reported that a senior CIA official confirmed my account that Valerie did not propose me for the trip:
"'She did not propose me,' he [Wilson] said -- others at the CIA did so. A senior CIA official said that is his understanding too."

Second conclusion: "Rather than speaking publicly about his actual experiences during his inquiry of the Niger issue, the former ambassador seems to have included information he learned from press accounts and from his beliefs about how the Intelligence Community would have or should have handled the information he provided."

This conclusion states that I told the committee staff that I "may have become confused about my own recollection after the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reported that the names and dates on the documents were not correct." At the time that I was asked that question, I was not afforded the opportunity to review the articles to which the staff was referring. I have now done so.

On March 7, 2003, the director general of the IAEA reported to the U.N. Security Council that the documents that had been given to him were "not authentic." His deputy, Jacques Baute, was even more direct, pointing out that the forgeries were so obvious that a quick Google search would have exposed their flaws. A State Department spokesman was quoted the next day as saying about the forgeries, "We fell for it." From that time on the details surrounding the documents became public knowledge and were widely reported. I was not the source of information regarding the forensic analysis of the documents in question; the IAEA was.

The first time I spoke publicly about the Niger issue was in response to the State Department's disclaimer. On CNN a few days later, in response to a question, I replied that I believed the U.S. government knew more about the issue than the State Department spokesman had let on and that he had misspoken. I did not speak of my trip.

My first public statement was in my article of July 6 published in the New York Times, written only after it became apparent that the administration was not going to deal with the Niger question unless it was forced to. I wrote the article because I believed then, and I believe now, that it was important to correct the record on the statement in the president's State of the Union address which lent credence to the charge that Iraq was actively reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. I believed that the record should reflect the facts as the U.S. government had known them for over a year. The contents of my article do not appear in the body of the report and it is not quoted in the "additional comments." In that article, I state clearly that "as for the actual memorandum, I never saw it. But news accounts have pointed out that the documents had glaring errors -- they were signed, for example, by officials who were no longer in government -- and were probably forged. (And then there's the fact that Niger formally denied the charges.)"

The first time I actually saw what were represented as the documents was when Andrea Mitchell, the NBC correspondent, handed them to me in an interview on July 21. I was not wearing my glasses and could not read them. I have to this day not read them. I would have absolutely no reason to claim to have done so. My mission was to look into whether such a transaction took place or could take place. It had not and could not. By definition that makes the documents bogus.

The text of the "additional comments" also asserts that "during Mr. Wilson's media blitz, he appeared on more than thirty television shows including entertainment venues. Time and again, Joe Wilson told anyone who would listen that the President had lied to the American people, that the Vice President had lied, and that he had 'debunked' the claim that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa."

My article in the New York Times makes clear that I attributed to myself "a small role in the effort to verify information about Africa's suspected link to Iraq's nonconventional weapons programs." After it became public that there were then-Ambassador to Niger Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick's report and the report from a four-star Marine Corps general, Carleton Fulford, in the files of the U.S. government, I went to great lengths to point out that mine was but one of three reports on the subject. I never claimed to have "debunked" the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa. I claimed only that the transaction described in the documents that turned out to be forgeries could not have occurred and did not occur. I did not speak out on the subject until several months after it became evident that what underpinned the assertion in the State of the Union address were those documents, reports of which had sparked Vice President Cheney's original question that led to my trip. The White House must have agreed. The day after my article appeared in the Times a spokesman for the president told the Washington Post that "the sixteen words did not rise to the level of inclusion in the State of the Union."

I have been very careful to say that while I believe that the use of the 16 words in the State of the Union address was a deliberate attempt to deceive the Congress of the United States, I do not know what role the president may have had other than he has accepted responsibility for the words he spoke. I have also said on many occasions that I believe the president has proven to be far more protective of his senior staff than they have been to him

The "additional comments" also assert: "The Committee found that, for most analysts, the former ambassador's report lent more credibility, not less, to the reported Niger-Iraq uranium deal." In fact, the body of the Senate report suggests the exact opposite:

In August 2002, a CIA NESA [Office of Near Eastern and South Asian Analysis] report on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities did not include the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium information. (page 48)
In September 2002, during coordination of a speech with an NSC staff member, the CIA analyst suggested the reference to Iraqi attempts to acquire uranium from Africa be removed. The CIA analyst said the NSC staff member said that would leave the British "flapping in the wind." (page 50)

The uranium text was included in the body of the NIE [National Intelligence Estimate] but not in the key judgments. When someone suggested that the uranium information be included as another sign of reconstitution, the INR [State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research] Iraq nuclear analyst spoke up and said the he did not agree with the uranium reporting and that INR would be including text indicating their disagreement in their footnote on nuclear reconstitution. The NIO [national intelligence officer] said he did not recall anyone really supporting including the uranium issue as part of the judgment that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear program, so he suggested that the uranium information did not need to be part of the key judgments. He told committee staff that he suggested, "We'll leave it in the paper for completeness. Nobody can say we didn't connect the dots. But we don't have to put that dot in the key judgments." (page 53)

On Oct. 2, 2002, the Deputy DCI [director of central intelligence] testified before the SSCI [Senate Select Committee on Intelligence]. Sen. Jon Kyl asked the Deputy DCI whether he had read the British White Paper and whether he disagreed with anything in the report. The Deputy DCI testified that "the one thing where I think they stretched a little bit beyond where we would stretch is on the points about Iraq seeking uranium from various African locations." (page 54)

On Oct. 4, 2002, the NIO for Strategic and Nuclear Programs testified that "there is some information on attempts ... there's a question about those attempts because of the control of the material in those countries ... For us it's more the concern that they [Iraq] have uranium in-country now." (page 54)

On Oct. 5, 2002, the ADDI [associate deputy director for intelligence] said an Iraqi nuclear analyst -- he could not remember who -- raised concerns about the sourcing and some of the facts of the Niger reporting, specifically that the control of the mines in Niger would have made it very difficult to get yellowcake to Iraq. (page 55)

Based on the analyst's comments, the ADDI faxed a memo to the deputy national security advisor that said, "Remove the sentence because the amount is in dispute and it is debatable whether it can be acquired from this source. We told Congress that the Brits have exaggerated this issue. Finally, the Iraqis already have 550 metric tons of uranium oxide in their inventory." (page 56)

On Oct. 6, 2002, the DCI called the deputy national security advisor directly to outline the CIA's concerns. The DCI testified to the SSCI on July 16, 2003, that he told the deputy national security advisor that the "President should not be a fact witness on this issue," because his analysts had told him the "reporting was weak." (page 56)

On Oct. 6, 2002, the CIA sent a second fax to the White House that said, "More on why we recommend removing the sentence about procuring uranium oxide from Africa: Three points (1) The evidence is weak. One of the two mines cited by the source as the location of the uranium oxide is flooded. The other mine cited by the source is under the control of the French authorities. (2) The procurement is not particularly significant to Iraq's nuclear ambitions because the Iraqis already have a large stock of uranium oxide in their inventory. And (3) we have shared points one and two with Congress, telling them that the Africa story is overblown and telling them this is one of the two issues where we differed with the British." (page 56)

On March 8, 2003, the intelligence report on my trip was disseminated within the U.S. government, according to the Senate report (page 43). Further, the Senate report states that "in early March, the Vice President asked his morning briefer for an update on the Niger uranium issue." That update from the CIA "also noted that the CIA would be debriefing a source who may have information related to the alleged sale on March 5." The report then states the "DO officials also said they alerted WINPAC [Center for Weapons Intelligence, Nonproliferation and Arms Control] analysts when the report was being disseminated because they knew the high priority of the issue." The report notes that the CIA briefer did not brief the vice president on the report. (page 46)

It is clear from the body of the Senate report that the intelligence community, including the DCI himself, made several attempts to ensure that the president did not become a "fact witness" on an allegation that was so weak. A thorough reading of the report substantiates the claim made in my opinion piece in the New York Times and in subsequent interviews I have given on the subject. The 16 words should never have been in the State of the Union address, as the White House now acknowledges.

I undertook this mission at the request of my government in response to a legitimate concern that Saddam Hussein was attempting to reconstitute his nuclear weapons program. This was a national security issue that has concerned me since I was the deputy chief of mission in the U.S. Embassy in Iraq before and during the first Gulf War.

At the time of my trip I was in private business and had not offered my views publicly on the policy we should adopt toward Iraq. Indeed, throughout the debate in the run-up to the war, I took the position that the U.S. be firm with Saddam Hussein on the question of weapons of mass destruction programs, including backing tough diplomacy with the credible threat of force. In that debate I never mentioned my trip to Niger. I did not share the details of my trip until May 2003, after the war was over, and then only when it became clear that the administration was not going to address the issue of the State of the Union statement.
It is essential that the errors and distortions in the additional comments be corrected for the public record. Nothing could be more important for the American people than to have an accurate picture of the events that led to the decision to bring the United States into war in Iraq. The Senate Intelligence Committee has an obligation to present to the American people the factual basis of that process. I hope that this letter is helpful in that effort. I look forward to your further "additional comments."

Sincerely,
Joseph C. Wilson IV, Washington, D.C.


The Post's article was a redaction of several details of a minority appendix to the Report of Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. Wilson replied to the specific details of these interpretations of facts linked at salon.com on July 15, 2004.

Anyway, Wilson replied to her article within days.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56501-2004Jul16.html

Quote:
Debunking Distortions About My Trip to Niger
Saturday, July 17, 2004; Page A17
For the second time in a year, your paper has published an article [news story, July 10] falsely suggesting that my wife, Valerie Plame, was responsible for the trip I took to Niger on behalf of the U.S. government to look into allegations that Iraq had sought to purchase several hundred tons of yellowcake uranium from that West African country. Last July 14, Robert Novak, claiming two senior sources, exposed Valerie as an "agency operative [who] suggested sending him to Niger." Novak went ahead with his column despite the fact that the CIA had urged him not to disclose her identity. That leak to Novak may well have been a federal crime and is under investigation.

In the year since the betrayal of Valerie's covert status, it has been widely understood that she is irrelevant to the unpaid mission I undertook or the conclusions I reached. But your paper's recent article acted as a funnel for this scurrilous and extraneous charge, uncritically citing the Republican-written Senate Select Committee on Intelligence report.
The decision to send me to Niger was not made, and could not be made, by Valerie. At the conclusion of a meeting that she did not attend, I was asked by CIA officials whether I would be willing to travel to Niger. While a CIA reports officer and a State Department analyst, both cited in the report, speculate about what happened, neither of them was in the chain of command that made the decision to send me. Reams of documents were given over to the Senate committee, but the only quotation attributed to my wife on this subject was the anodyne "my husband has good relations with both the PM (Prime Minister) and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." In fact, with 2-year-old twins at home, Valerie did not relish my absence for a two-week period. But she acquiesced because, in the zeal to be responsive to the legitimate concerns raised by the vice president, officials of her agency turned to a known functionary who had previously checked out uranium-related questions for them.

But that is not the only inaccurate assertion or conclusion in the Senate report uncritically parroted in the article. Other inaccuracies and distortions include the suggestion that my findings "bolstered" the case that Niger was engaged in illegal sales of uranium to Iraq. In fact, the Senate report is clear that the intelligence community attempted to keep the claim out of presidential documents because of the weakness of the evidence.

The facts surrounding my trip remain the same. I traveled to Niger and found it unlikely that Iraq had attempted to purchase several hundred tons of yellowcake uranium. In his 2003 State of the Union address, President Bush referred to Iraqi attempts to purchase uranium "from Africa." Between March 2003 and July 2003, the administration refused to acknowledge that it had known for more than a year that the claim on uranium sales from Niger had been discredited, until the day after my article in the New York Times. The next day the White House issued a statement that "the sixteen words did not rise to the level of inclusion in the State of the Union address." Those facts are amply supported in the Senate report.

-- Joseph C. Wilson IV


the attacks on wilson's veracity were made by only 3 of the 18 senators on the committee. 15 senators did not accuse wilson of lying. to the 3 who did wilson pointed out that their conclusions were based upon heresay interviews of peole who were not involved in te decison making process about who sent him to niger instead of interviewing the actual CIA persons who did send him, that there were two other reports that corroberated his claims, and that his answers to committee staff were referring to documents other than the staff alleges.


Kuvasz, thank you.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 12:31 pm
'Virtually every media source'

Laughable, Fox, laughable.

The Senate report itself does not confirm what you say it does. I suggest you actually READ the report before trying to use it asw evidence.

What it actually says is this:

Quote:
Conclusion 13:

The report on the former Ambassador's trip to Nigeria, disseminated in March 2002, did not change any analysts' assessments of the Iraq-Niger uranium deal. For most analysts, the information in the report lent more credibility to the original CIA reports on the uranium deal, but the State Department Buereau of of Intelligence and Research (INR) believed that the report supported their previous assessment that Niger was unlikely to be willing or able to sell uranium to Iraq.


See? It isn't as cut-and-dry as you and other Righties present it. It is decidedly muddy. Yet it is presented as clear truth. This seems to be a pattern with those on the right, wouldn't you agree?

On a different point, what 'downright dishonest' source did I provide, now that you have brought it up? Yours is the only one which has been shown to be lying.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 12:51 pm
Oh yeah. You said that

Quote:
To this day the Brits stand by their report and agree that Wilson has been discredited and is lying. So who to believe?


And then provided me with the links to support it here:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1452579#1452579

And while the links do mention that Britain said it had 'additional evidence' to support the Iraq-Niger connection, they don't mention Joe Wilson at all. And seeing as this evidence was, according to your own source, not shared with the US gov't, how can Wilson be said to have been lying? Noone is saying this in ANY of the British links you provided at all.

If you wish to support your claims you are going to need to do far, far better than what you have tried to do so far today, Fox. I now see why you don't like to bring evidence into threads; it backfires on ya with frequency.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:03 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I do not accept that the OpinionJOurnal piece is proved to be lying nor does any other major media outlet. I think some of the research cited to dispute it is probably seriously lacking in both objectivity and substance.



It is you that fails to have any objectivity or substance Fox.. lets look at your "sources." The WSJ piece is an EDITORIAL and presents no facts but only nitpicks Wilson's response. It is NOT a valid NEWS SOURCE.

The only mention of Wilson doesn't contradict him at all. it says....
Quote:
Mr Straw on Saturday said his government had not been told of Mr Wilson's visit.

Doesn't mention Wilson at all.. it does state however..
Quote:
Answering the charge that has caused the head of the CIA to apologise for allowing the US president, George Bush, to state the claim as fact in his state of the nation address, Mr Straw said US intelligence "believed in the veracity of the claims which we had made".
But his rebuttal came on the day that the sacked defence minister Lewis Moonie said that ministers had a "duty" to "spin" the case against Iraq.

Opinion piece and therefor not a valid news source.
It has been REPEATEDLY pointed out to you the FACTS about the Senate report Fox but you IGNORE those facts and continue to claim it says something that it does NOT.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:09 pm
I submit, Cyc, that despite the adamance shown by yourself, kuvasz, and in general The Opposition, that the WSJ article in question, and by extension, its central premis, has not been disproven at all, and I submit further that the "Only 3 Committee members" ploy is a matter of considerable dispute, one faction taking one stance, the other taking an opposite stance. Both sides in this dispute have, and press, agendas. Both sides in this dispute, have, and express opinions. Both sides in this dispute offer conjectures. What this dispute does not have is a Grand Jury conclusion. Until that arriives, all anyone has is agenda, opinion, and conjecture. Novak, arguably the sparkplug here, is on record with a guess of his own - that being that when he does "reveal all", "there might be some surprising things". I believe indeed there will be "some surprising things", and not just from Novak.

Believe as you wish, however, as will I and those of any opinion in the matter - its certainly anyone's right to dig themselves their own hole.


We shall see. Unitil we see, we can only guess, no matter how fervently we endorse one outcome or another.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:16 pm
I am content with this post in toto Timber.

But you must realize that there is no merit whatsoever in trying to prove anything about Joe Wilson at this point. Details of his life or what even happened in Nigeria are inconsequential. The investiagtion currently taking place has to do with the leaking of Valerie Plame's identity and the identity of the CIA front company that she was listed as working for, a leak which has caused a reduction in our WMD finding abilities.

We should probably focus on the actual issue instead of a smear-job saying 'oh, wilson's a liar and he and Plame set the whole thing up to discredit Bush b/c they are partisans.'

But somehow I doubt we've seen the last of the smearing from the righties.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:19 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
That's because Niger's former Prime Minister had told Mr. Wilson he interpreted a 1999 visit from an Iraqi trade delegation as showing an interest in uranium.
http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/6361.html

Also check these

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3061665.stm



During the debate about the Butler report in July, 2004, the UK government accepted criticisms about the quality of some intelligence and that intelligence claims on Niger did not rest only on forged documents alone - but that there were some other sources [which never have been published so far.]


Quote:
Niger's former prime minister has said that Iraq did not try to buy uranium, contradicting claims made in the build-up to the invasion of Iraq.
Ibrahim Mayaki told the BBC that no Iraqi delegation went to Niger while he was foreign minister or prime minister.

[...]

Mr Mayaki denies allegations in the Senate report that he admitted meeting a delegation from Iraq in 1999.
Source
0 Replies
 
pngirouard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:27 pm
I find it quite frustrating to see so many in the dark still about Iraq's nuclear capability post 1998, the year the IAEA basically declared Iraq's nuclear program defunct. Now that Saddam is deposed, a few facts can be assumed and are well exposed in the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace last report on Iraq and WMDs.

The Carnegie Endowment Report, January 2004, a well read and authoritative report examines over a timeline the various claims made about Iraq's nuclear capability and arrives at the following conclusions regarding Iraq's attempts to procure uranium from abroad:

Quote:
"In July 2003, various reports revealed that the US officials were aware that the evidence for the African uranium claim was unfounded. The administration acknowledged that the remark should not have appeared in the President's State of the Union speech."


That was in accordance with IAEA and UN findings that in 2002 and 2003 declared the documents supporting the African uranium claim were forgeries.

More info in the summary of the report found at:

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/Iraq3Table3.pdf

The full report at:

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1435&prog=zgp&proj=znpp

Thus it is a little preposterous if not outright stupid to claim that Wilson's dismissal of the Niger link was wrong when the evidence supports Wilson's conclusions. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:29 pm
I didn't say that the Senate report confirmed anything;.Nor does it confirm what you and Kuzack have inferred. Salon is a dishonest source when it comes to this issue--or any sources that keep repeating the mantra that has already been discounted by more honest media, even those who typically can't say anything honest about the adminsitration without adding something negative.

The Robert Novak piece I posted definitely debunks what is being said that he said.

It is a tempest in a teapot . Karl Rove is guilty of no wrong doing in this matter; he is certainly guilty of no crime. To keep repeating that he is, is frankly a lie.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:35 pm
You don't know that any more than anyone else knows that he IS guilty, yet you say that with 100% certainty as if it is true.

This is what is so frustrating about you Fox; you have little to no connection to reality. You have already been shown how your sources are false. The Senate report does confirm what Kuvasz and I have said: that a seperate Addendum is being used as talking points by the right in order to make it seem as if the Bipartisan commission concluded that Plame was responsible for sending Wilson. They did not do so.

Also, your posts re: Britain have done nothing to support your stated position on the Brits and Joe Wilson. Nothing at all. I note you convienently left that tidbit out of your post.

And I also like how you call Salon 'dishonest' when you have zero proof that they have lied. You state that they have been 'disproved' by more honest media when in fact this is not true and you cannot show how it is true.

In the terms of this discussion you are quickly lapsing into irrelevancy. Not that I think that will keep you from posting.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:38 pm
I am saying what all the mainstream media is now saying. If you have an OBJECTIVE, non-partisan source that shows that he is guilty, put it out there.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:41 pm
That shows WHO is guilty?

Rove? Noone knows whether he is guilty or not! That's the whole point of the Grand Jury investigation. Anyone who says any differently is talking out their ass! I have never once said that Rove is guilty of anything. You are setting up quite the straw man to cover up the fact that the evidence that you have presented does not match the argument you are making.

There is no mainstream media saying that he isn't guilty. There are media reports that say that it may be quite difficult to prosecute Rove for outing an agent, but that says nothing about Conspiracy or Perjury charges, both of which are quite possible right now.

You are confusing Fox News for the Mainstream media. According to you, NOONE is non-partisan; noone that doesn't support what you say, anyways.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:48 pm
I haven't posted a single item from FOX news. I have posted a lot from other sources howver. Are you saying that throughout this thread you haven't been pronouncing Rove guilty of a crime?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:50 pm
Some fact:
Quote:
Book Names Iraqi in Alleged '99 Bid to Buy Uranium

By Susan Schmidt
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 30, 2004; Page A16


It was Saddam Hussein's information minister, Mohammed Saeed Sahhaf, often referred to in the Western press as "Baghdad Bob," who approached an official of the African nation of Niger in 1999 to discuss trade -- an overture the official saw as a possible effort to buy uranium.

That's according to a new book Joseph C. Wilson IV, a former ambassador who was sent to Niger by the CIA in 2002 to investigate reports that Iraq had been trying to buy enriched "yellowcake" uranium. Wilson wrote that he did not learn the identity of the Iraqi official until this January, when he talked again with his Niger source ...

... Tenet's statement noted that Wilson had reported back to the CIA that a former Niger official told him that "in June 1999 a businessman approached him and insisted that the former official meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss 'expanding commercial relations' between Iraq and Niger. The former official interpreted the overture as an attempt to discuss uranium sales."

In his book, Wilson recounts his encounter with the unnamed Niger official in 2002, saying, he "hesitated and looked up to the sky as if plumbing the depths of his memory, then offered that perhaps the Iraqi might have wanted to talk about uranium." ...


A bit more fact:

Quote:
CIA officer named prior to column

The identity of CIA officer Valerie Plame was compromised twice before her name appeared in a news column that triggered a federal illegal-disclosure investigation, U.S. officials say.
Mrs. Plame's identity as an undercover CIA officer was first disclosed to Russia in the mid-1990s by a Moscow spy, said officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

In a second compromise, officials said a more recent inadvertent disclosure resulted in references to Mrs. Plame in confidential documents sent by the CIA to the U.S. Interests Section of the Swiss Embassy in Havana ...


And some fact mixed with opinion and speculation:

Quote:
The Plame Name Game
Once again, the Liberal media is trying to ramp up hysteria over the "outing" of Ambassador Joe Wilson's wife, CIA employee Valerie Plame. The problem with their frenzy is that there's no substance to the charge, once all the angry flailing and faux outrage are done with ...

... Wilson investigated reports of Saddam's attempt to buy Nigerian uranium and lied about his findings.

Wilson filed a disappointingly neutral report upon his return, but published an editorial stating unequivocally that the British-backed claim was absolutely untrue -- and that President Bush was using it anyway, to create a reason to attack Saddam. However, in his 2004 book, Wilson revealed that "It was Saddam Hussein's information minister, Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, often referred to in the Western press as 'Baghdad Bob,' who approached an official of the African nation of Niger in 1999 to discuss trade -- an overture the official saw as a possible effort to buy uranium." So the uranium buy attempt actually did happen, and Wilson knew about it, but lied about it to try and prevent the liberation of Iraq for political purposes ...

... Apparently, Valerie Plame ceased to be a covert agent when her cover was blown years earlier. The CIA believed that Aldrich Ames (CIA agent/KGB spy/traitor) revealed her role, along with many other operatives, to the KGB before his arrest in 1994. Plame's former existence as a secret agent became little more than cocktail party chatter with which to thrill the uninitiated. Since her identity was not classified, not secret, and she had not been assigned to duty outside the US in the last five years, revealing her mundane desk job with the CIA was simply not a crime. Lots of people work for the CIA, after all.

What no one talks about is the reason Wilson was picked to go to Niger... the question that originally nagged Novak. In fact, whoever did uncover Plame's involvement in her husband's selection did the country a favor. Plame wanted Wilson to investigate the British claim because of his vocal antipathy to President Bush and his staunch opposition to the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. He was sent not to gather evidence and form a conclusion, but because his conclusion was foreordained. Whoever sent him was attempting to exert an undue influence over America's foreign policy by sending someone who would ignore evidence contrary to his opinion. Do we really want former secret agents playing political games to determine the outcomes of investigations before they're even begun? Investigations the outcomes of which may determine the nation's course in wartime?

Once again, Liberals and their pet Democrats have chosen the wrong hill to die on. While ignoring the real problem we narrowly avoided, they try to whip us into an attack on someone who, even if their accusations are true, commited no crime.


Interperate as you may see fit.
0 Replies
 
 

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