What's more true: 2+2=4 or II+II=IV?

why not solve this as a double substitution equation and be done with it? We are beginning to look stupid to the rest of the planet.

There is quite a bit of misunderstanding about science. People without expertise in a subject are quite sure they understand it even when they are wrong. The process usually works like this.

1. An expert scientist makes a discovery and writes one or more scientific papers about it.

2. A journalist or writer takes this discovery and writes about it using non-scientific language that is accessible to most people.

3. Normal people read the journalists account and form their own understanding.

There are two levels of indirection here... the understanding at the end is an interpretation of an interpretation of the actual science.

An expert scientist almost always has a PhD. They are experts because they have done at least 12 years of university study usually with post-grad work. They have mastered advanced mathematics related to their field. They have worked with and received feedback from peers and professors. They have done lab work, published their own work.

The journalists aren't generally scientists. Sometimes they are good, other times they aren't so good. Sometimes they are sensationalizing the science to sell their work or to help a cause they believe in. A journalist doesn't have to show the mathematics or go to peer review or make sure the readers understanding after reading their piece is correct. If they write an interesting story... they win.

In hard sciences, Physics, Chemistry, Geology, Astronomy, the work is mostly done mathematically. This is work that is not accessible to the public at large. It is just a fact that if you don't understand differential calculus you can't understand the work being done in Physics.

So, we end up with a bunch of misunderstandings about science that are pretty prevalent.

There is an ongoing debate in science about how to communicate better to the public. Most professional scientists I know throw up their hands and claim that it isn't their job.

Of course it's not their job. Most scientists are poor communicators, in my experience. There are countless journalists and youtubers for that...

The issue is that truths can be expressed in different ways, but if people argue that one way of expressing something is inferior to some other way, e.g. because it's less specific or uses terms that aren't the ones used in expert discourse on the subject, then it is less true.

Whoever mentioned the church resisting Arabic numerals b/c of preferring Roman numerals notes this issue happening due to religion, when today it probably happens more as a result of people treating academia as a church instead of as merely a method of training minds to study and think.

Izzy follows me around from thread to thread. On many of these threads (such as this one) he doesn't even make an attempt to address the topic. He is just here to throw mud at me. No one has to like me, and there are a fair amount of people who simply ignore my posts. Good for them. The problem with Izzy's behavior is that it keeps derailing threads with these off-topic games.

Maybe I should be flattered. Izzy is my stalker.

Hey Izzy, here's an idea. Since you are here anyway, how about addressing the topic of this thread?

Your obsession with me is a little creepy.

It is one thing to choose to not put me on ignore. It is another thing that you are following me around from thread to thread.

It seems to me that there is a big difference between these two things.

I am going to go back to the topic now. Would you like to join us?

Hey, am I a nice Pan Troglodyte? I want in to!

When I see you in the forums should I turn left or turn right to sum up some distance? No symmetry for me? ...gaaah to hell with it I'll do the quantum trick and go both ways. Later!

If you really don't want to interact with me, start by not responding to my posts. That would seem like a logical start... if that was really what you wanted.

I am glad there is another member of the Izzy fanboy club (I would say fanperson club, but at least for now Izzy's club seems to be exclusively for White men).

The only thing that irks me is the stalking... jumping from thread to thread to make childish insults hurts the forum in general. All I ask is that if you are on the thread, you address the topic of the thread. Other than that, I don't care what you do to please Izzy in your own time.

I am not only white and German but I am a good chimp. I monkey around like no other. Your monkey tricks are a bit boring often with arguments ad authority, ad populum, strawman, etc, contradicting your lecturing admonitio (reprimands) for rational precise objective thought processes...

You're German now???

I take your point about "acdemia" being like a church, although I would broaden it to institutional science. Science is being done by expert scientists in industry, government and academia.

So, can we say that "institutional science" acts like a church? I accept that this is a valid argument., I am saying that non-scientists need to listen to actual scientists, as determined by the degree and the position they hold. Yes, I accept that this is an awkward argument for me to be making.

However, what is the alternative?

To discuss things like "curvature of space" you must understand differential calculus. There is no other way around it. It takes time and hard work to reach an understanding of this stuff.

So what happens is that expert scientists say something they discovered about the "curvature" of space. This is interpreted by a journalist, then it is reinterpreted by the reader (with maybe another step in-between).

The science you understand is not real science. It is an interpretation of an interpretation of the actual science.

I have been on both sides of this conversation when an expert in a field talks to a non-expert. When I started a new job I got into an argument about the nature of infinity with a new co-worker. I argued with him about this.. .until it became clear that he understood this field of math (number theory) at a level I couldn't comprehend. It turns out that (unknown to me) he was a PhD in mathematics specializing in number theory (abelian groups or some stuff that I have never studied).

Once I realized that he was the expert, I backed down. It became clear that he knew the mathematics that I didn't even know applied to this. I had made a simplification to something I thought I knew, but I was wrong.

The thing is I had to trust him. He showed where I was wrong, and then started to describe what was right. Honestly I could understand if I wanted to, but it would take me a couple of years to really understand.

This is the Dunning Kruger curve. Dunning-Kruger pointed out that people without expertise can be very confident of their knowledge (even though the confidence is unwarranted).



In science, students enter their first year at the top of that first peak. By the sophomore year you are in the valley (and many students drop out at this time).

There are no shortcuts. You have to do the work.

You have two rational choices then Fil.

- You can ignore me.
- You can respond to my posts, either engaging rationally, or posting on-topic rebuttals.

Following me around making childish off-topic insults is not rational. It is childish and it hurts the forum.

I get it, I upset you on another thread. Sorry, here, have a cookie. Now, do you have something to say on the topic of this thread?

( oh... and welcome to the Izzy fan club)

I have some German blood yes this is old news. The Albuquerque's from Portugal mixed with the Kreiselers from Germany Berlin. Kreiseler the XIX cent Violin composer yes. There is also Stockler which I am not sure where it is from.

The Albuquerque are a noble family, no?

Max lad who said I was not ignoring you? I am just not totally ignoring you. You are a rare specimen of boring and I not being a Saint confess to loving seeing you dig your own grave on every "iteration" of rational thought you bring to the forums.
On topic, I am still waiting for a proper explanation to the question I posted before, got zilch for an answer. I guess you did miss my previous joke bout left n right that was on topic. Expected!

Yes Olivier! Afonso de Albuquerque was Viceroy of India back on the XVI cent. He descends from a Portuguese King bastard son. I am unclear on where I did get some of my bad impetuous temperament, either from the Albuquerques or from the Germans...

Re Max, he's not usually that interested in what other posters say. He's got a few obsessions which he rants about, and to the extent that they coincide with mine, i read what he writes. But not vice versa. He's a one way street.

This thread is exclusively white and male. There's no Izzy fanboys, but I imagine there's quite a lot of Max twatboys.

People aren't inspired by a love of me, even though I am adorable.

You did this, like when you try to dictate how people react on a thread. People don't like being told what to do, especially when the person doing the telling is someone like you.

You seem to be doing pretty well on your own.

I'm unsure of your use of the word Pan. Are you a goat like Greek god currently living underground or do you encompass the attributes of all underground dweller?

As you capitalised Pan I suspect the former, but then again, this is all new territory for me.