6
   

Creationists, Flat-Earthers, Anti-Vaxxers.... People who reject science.

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2020 06:25 am
@izzythepush,
I only suggested that a different paradigm of pilot training could have prevented those deaths.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2020 06:52 am
@Leadfoot,
Thus deflecting criticism away from the company who are the real culprits.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2020 08:03 am
@Leadfoot,
The question is when. Meanwhile, some airlines have incurred billions in losses and will (I expect) sue Boeing to recover some of that. Adding yo that the loss in trust, and the liability for the familues of the victims... Boeing is going to pay dearly for this one.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2020 09:53 am
@Leadfoot,
I think you nd obviously george ob are more closely attuned to the interconnected industris surrounding flight.

Theres really only 2 majpr aircraft mafs out there. Airbus is a huge multinational and so is Boeing. Resewrch, design, manufacture, testing, technical training, and SERVICE are seemingly all separate profit centers crafted and owned by separate companies.

As someone said, theres plenty of blame to go around. I recall the DC-10 years , the supersonic passenger years and then380 interregnum.

0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2020 04:22 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

those examples youve presented are merely dodging the issue and you know it. The point was what makes you accept a round earth v d enial of the bases for Continental Drift(when each are easily proven from available evidence)

You worked yourself into that corner and Id like to keep you there until you answer the actual question on the table.

I wasn't trying to dodge anything. I don't understand what you're asking and in what sense you think I am in a corner.

You're saying I don't accept a round Earth? You're making a point about continental drift being due to the Earth's roundness? What's your point, exactly?



Quote:
Quote:
Reason and logic and mechanics and critical thinking are more important than fact-memorization. Lots of people can pass a science class by memorizing facts and choosing the right multiple-choice answer; or by applying a mathematical formula correctly; but that doesn't mean they are thinking scientifically or that they ever will, for that matter


Might I say that, speaking on the side of science. Neither Fact memorization and critical thinking hve nothing in common without UNDERSTANDING.

My point exactly was that fact-memorization has nothing to do with understanding. Critical-thinking does, however, in that you have to question how something is true in order to truly understand it. If you just accept facts because they are peer-reviewed, you might coincidentally believe in something that is true, but that doesn't mean you actually understand why/how it's true. For that, you have to think critically about it.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2020 04:37 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
I've read Karl Popper on falsificationism.

It can be a powerful tool whether or not you think Popper was off his feed or not.
"Falsification" (Or , more often, "field testing" our hypotheses) has shown to be especially powerful in paleontology an understanings of evolution of species .

Falsification is a simple philosophical concept, which is that it is possible to derive/deduce numerous claims, even testable claims, from a theory - but that it is better to derive/deduce a claim that has potential to prove the theory wrong than to go on testing a theory in ways that support it.

It's a very clever piece of logic, but in reality once you understand how it works, you can go on deriving falsifiable tests from a theory in a way that will fail so you can claim that the theory has stood up to falsifiability repeatedly. In other words, you can claim that a theory has withstood falsification repeatedly to achieve the same effect as deriving tests to support it repeatedly.

Quote:
For example, one of the best recent examples of the application of "Field testing a hypotheses" was the following,
TWO paleo scientists asked the question that
"If specific types of fishes were the common ancestors of amphibians, then , there should be fossils of these common ancestors located in geological strata in a very tight time zone of the mid Devonian and they should be located in a shallow fresh water sedimentary environment"
So they tested the hypothesis by identifying three specific environment types of this type of sedimentary rock. Three years after they began the search, they did find such a fossil that represents one of several species of proto amphibians . Later, more species of similar fish were found in the same environment and rock dates. The combined fetures of these types of fish are unique to environments that were seasonally drying sorts of pre Carboniferous "strut" formations. The evidence of evolutionary adaptation to a more arid or swampy environment was a valid conclusion.

Not finding such species would have been harmful to the hypotheses because
either
1The whole hypothesis was incorrect (hence it was found to be false)

2OR, fossilization didnt occur in those typs and /or dates of these specific formations.

Consequently, I think, for achieving some better understanding about the "engines" of Continental Drift you could be helped a gret deal by looking at all the data objectively rather than drawing conclusions from a story that you cooked up yourself and are a bit too proud to abandon. THEN , treat this data (especially isothermal maps) as a "field test". Make a working statement that starts with

"If my hypothesis is so then I should see the following ..."

I'm not doing deductive theorizing, though. I am applying the laws of thermodynamics to inductively search for ways that energy moves through the Earth system.

Let's say I took something that I speculated about, such as the possibility that sludge pushed under the continental shelf by the subducting plate is pushed beyond the volcanic veins that lead to the surface and ends up flowing laterally and/or downward where the rock pressure above it is too strong for it to force material upward as occurs at the volcano sites.

Now I have a hypothesis, but how am I going to test/falsify it? I could say that if all the sludge was boiling up as lava through volcanoes that there would be no diamonds found at the trailing end of the plates, and that information would add support to my hypothesis that sludge is continuing to flow beyond the volcanic veins/vents to the surface.

Now lets say I go further and hypothesize that the sludge is not only coming out at the trailing edge of the plate, but that it is being force downward through veins/tributaries that continue through the mantle and even eventually reach the core and feed into it? How I am going to falsify that? How can I look what's going on beneath a subducted plate beyond where volcanoes are boiling up lava? You are a geologist so you tell me, what data can I investigate that will provide some window into what's going on underneath the plate beyond the volcanoes near the subduction zone?


livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2020 04:38 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Have you seen A Fish Called Wanda? Otto has read Nietzsche, but he's still a bloody idiot.

And he's also a terrible pushy bully who ridicules other people to feel superior over them.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2020 05:40 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
you can go on deriving falsifiable tests from a theory in a way that will fail so you can claim that the theory has stood up to falsifiability repeatedly. In other words, you can claim that a theory has withstood falsification repeatedly to achieve the same effect as deriving tests to support it repeatedly.
What you hve no clue about is that the process of falsification procedures are NOT YOURS TO CLAIM VALIDITY. You may propose anything you wish, but theres a gazillion real scientists out there who can open a discussion and rach a conclusion about what it is you propose. Dont get too full of yourself.


Quote:
I am applying the laws of thermodynamics to inductively search for ways that energy moves through the Earth system
All you are doing is using the word Thermodynamics to sound scientistic. You have presented NOTHING that even is in the same nighborhood as real thermo. PUHLEESE stop trying to sound like yo even know how to go about it.

Quote:
Let's say I took something that I speculated about, such as the possibility that sludge pushed under the continental shelf by the subducting plate is pushed beyond the volcanic veins that lead to the surface and ends up flowing laterally and/or downward where the rock pressure above it is too strong for it to force material upward as occurs at the volcano sites.
Youre just talking gibberish do you know that? . As far as asking me to validate your "method of falsification", Youre just back making up a hash of semi technical sounding terms.
You're so far from understanding the mechanisms that go on and how we know (and, how you SHOULD know if yo wish to sound half smart).
Im not gonna waste any further words on giving your word crap any credibility. If you cant take time to learn the facts , then why not jut hang out in your basement and play e-games. You are getting very close to doing double talk like some old comedians. Im not your foil and by even answering you I think people may think that Im giving you cred and Im not.

Youve got too much to learn to be able to discuss things that dont occur and the data that shows it as so.

Maybe someone else will be kinder, I hate defiant ignorance. When someone doesnt know shot about a subject but maks believe they do and then tries to play with a few illogically arranged technical terms (just so they sound like they would have us believe that your a boy genius in the subject). Ive been grading too many "blue books" in grad school comps to know where its obvious that the correspondent is bluffing their way through a test. YOU are bluffing your way through this entire discussion. Please Go away , or start reading a beginning text in Physical Geology and then take up a library copy of Continents and Supercontinents nand pleeeeeze read it (at least chapters 1 through 6. Itll be eye opening to you and youll be really embarrassed at how dumb youve sounded herein.




Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2020 06:24 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Thus deflecting criticism away from the company who are the real culprits.

This is very weird. Why do you (and Olivier) think I’m defending Boeing? I clearly said that they fucked up big time. I have no stock there. I worked for their competitor Lockheed Martin. By your idiotic logic I should be dancing on Boeing's grave.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2020 08:38 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
you can go on deriving falsifiable tests from a theory in a way that will fail so you can claim that the theory has stood up to falsifiability repeatedly. In other words, you can claim that a theory has withstood falsification repeatedly to achieve the same effect as deriving tests to support it repeatedly.
What you hve no clue about is that the process of falsification procedures are NOT YOURS TO CLAIM VALIDITY. You may propose anything you wish, but theres a gazillion real scientists out there who can open a discussion and rach a conclusion about what it is you propose. Dont get too full of yourself.

Why do you launch off on this ego drivel? You brought up falsificationism so I responded and you start attacking me about whose authority counts in falsifying.

The reality is that everyone's authority counts for themselves. If you want to reject any theory, you can do so and defend your logic to anyone who cares. If people don't care about your logic because they decide that logic only counts when it comes out of a designated authority figure, then they're not going to listen to you regardless of how good your logic is.

Quote:
Quote:
I am applying the laws of thermodynamics to inductively search for ways that energy moves through the Earth system
All you are doing is using the word Thermodynamics to sound scientistic. You have presented NOTHING that even is in the same nighborhood as real thermo. PUHLEESE stop trying to sound like yo even know how to go about it.

Thermodynamics refers to the movement of energy. All you want to do is fight, not discuss anything scientific. Stop pretending to be interested in science just to put other people down. It's abuse of science.

Quote:
Quote:
Let's say I took something that I speculated about, such as the possibility that sludge pushed under the continental shelf by the subducting plate is pushed beyond the volcanic veins that lead to the surface and ends up flowing laterally and/or downward where the rock pressure above it is too strong for it to force material upward as occurs at the volcano sites.
Youre just talking gibberish do you know that? . As far as asking me to validate your "method of falsification", Youre just back making up a hash of semi technical sounding terms.
You're so far from understanding the mechanisms that go on and how we know (and, how you SHOULD know if yo wish to sound half smart).
Im not gonna waste any further words on giving your word crap any credibility. If you cant take time to learn the facts , then why not jut hang out in your basement and play e-games. You are getting very close to doing double talk like some old comedians. Im not your foil and by even answering you I think people may think that Im giving you cred and Im not.

I might not use the technical terminology, but you're not explaining what is wrong with what I'm saying, so as far as I can tell you are just unable to think about reality using someone else's way of talking about it. No matter because I get tired of listening to your superiority/inferiority rants anyway.

Quote:
Youve got too much to learn to be able to discuss things that dont occur and the data that shows it as so.

That may be true.

Quote:
Maybe someone else will be kinder, I hate defiant ignorance.

I'm not defiant. You're mean and condescending.

Quote:
When someone doesnt know shot about a subject but maks believe they do and then tries to play with a few illogically arranged technical terms (just so they sound like they would have us believe that your a boy genius in the subject).

You have major ego issues. I don't have to think about being a genius or not to think about things and post what I think so others can discuss what they think and/or know. If you weren't so obsessed with status, you could just discuss topics like this with people who are interested. You may be too spoiled to realize that most people don't have any interest let alone patience to discuss things like this, so I don't know what you are online for except to get in fights and put people down as per your ego trip. Good luck finding someone who appreciates your egotism enough to care.

Quote:
Ive been grading too many "blue books" in grad school comps to know where its obvious that the correspondent is bluffing their way through a test. YOU are bluffing your way through this entire discussion. Please Go away , or start reading a beginning text in Physical Geology and then take up a library copy of Continents and Supercontinents nand pleeeeeze read it (at least chapters 1 through 6. Itll be eye opening to you and youll be really embarrassed at how dumb youve sounded herein.

I think you went through all the trouble to engage in this discussion to sound more credible in putting me down at the end, but the reality is that you're just like all these other people who just have it out for me because of my political views, religious views.

You still never answered my question about whether you, with all your knowledge about geology, can estimate whether Earth is more likely to cool and become more solid over long geological time or whether it will stay in more or less the same state with the same molten core, hot mantle, etc. You may call me an idiot for whatever reasons you have, but surely you can at least apply your expertise to field a guess on whether Earth's core will stay molten and its magnetic field strength intact until the sun eventually turns into a red giant or whether it will cool and solidify throughout before then.

Thanks for trying to discuss the geology but no thanks for the mean spirited ridicule.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2020 03:58 am
@Leadfoot,
Your emphasis was on pilot error not manufacturers culpability.

What other conclusion do you expect people to make.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2020 04:41 am
@izzythepush,
Not worth the keystrokes
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2020 04:48 am
@Leadfoot,
It's spot on, unlike your 'projecting' retort which really wasn't worth the keystrokes which is why I didn't.

You just wanted to make yourself look big by boasting about how great a pilot you are.

Boasting rarely gets you any admirers, in this case you came across as a callous blowhard and corporate lickspittle.

If that's how you want people to think of you fair enough.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2020 05:01 am
@izzythepush,
I have learned that you cant help what people think of you.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2020 05:04 am
@Leadfoot,
You can if you give a bit of thought to what you write. Otherwise it would be impossible to persuade people about anything.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2020 05:18 am
@izzythepush,
But i thought all you had to do was flash your diploma.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2020 05:41 am
@Leadfoot,
Which would explain your success.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2020 06:18 am
@livinglava,
EVERYTHING Ive told you is fact, it s the really easy material. ANy first year tuent would have this knowledge. You continue on trip of defiant ignornce (Thats all it is because Id originally been rather avuncular in my discussions with you).
When you try to turn pfectly good bases of knowledge into "word salad" by just making up ****, I do get angry at how you can be so stupid yet so full of yourself.

Having aid that, I think Ive made my position clear. Im not going to address you further, BUT I WILL, address what youve said.

SO, you may soldier on or go away. Try to find someone who is easily impressed with your nonsense. I am not and Ive fully lost all patience with your scientific illiteracy.


Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2020 06:26 am
@izzythepush,
What farmer said.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2020 06:35 am
@Leadfoot,
Like all your posts, worthy of Oscar Wilde.
 

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