3
   

Why are anti-gunners so afraid to admit they just want all guns banned and confiscated?

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 07:55 pm
@Glennn,
Technically he was only saying that people should not be allowed to defend themselves in public. That would still allow for home defense.

But he is certainly saying that people need to be defenseless if they are ever unlucky enough to be caught up in one of these shooting sprees.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 08:10 pm
@oralloy,
He appears too dimwitted to understand that what he basically said was that it's unfortunate that someone in that church legally possessed the means to protect the rest of the congregation. It doesn't get any stupider than that.

And according to the video, he is quoted as saying, "If you want to have a gun in your home, I think you're pretty stupid." Which shows that he is too dimwitted to understand that what he is saying is: It's pretty stupid to decide to have the means to protect yourself and your family from a home invader.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 08:31 pm
@Glennn,
This seems to be cherry picking statistics (I also just checked, and I am pretty sure your statistic is high.... there are between 1 and 2 million burglaries a year).

How many of these burglaries result in violence?
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 08:44 pm
@maxdancona,
U.S. Department of Justice
Office of Justice Programs
Bureau of Justice Statistics


*An estimated 3.7 million burglaries occurred each year on
average from 2003 to 2007.

*A household member was present in roughly 1 million burglaries
and became victims of violent crimes in 266,560 burglaries.

*Simple assault (15%) was the most common form of violence when
a resident was home and violence occurred. Robbery (7%) and
rape (3%) were less likely to occur when a household member was
present and violence occurred.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

What is it you are hoping to convey through your criticism of what I posted?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 08:50 pm
@Glennn,
Yep. I was wrong (although there seems to be two different sets of stats). I believe these also include burglaries of businesses.

The 1 million figure is a little surprising to me. I thought that most burglars put effort into ensuring that houses they targeted were empty.

266,560 is a pretty low number. There are 327 million of us in the United States.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 08:53 pm
@maxdancona,
My daughter and I were victims of a violent crime in the street. Some guy with a pistol came around a corner and asked us for our money and cell phones. We handed them over. It was traumatic for my daughter (and for me as well). But we lived. I lost about $90 and had to pay $250 to replace the cell phone.

No one I have told this story to has suggested the outcome would have been any different had I been armed. I don't think that even the nuttiest of gun nuts would have drawn their weapon in this circumstance.

The guy already has a weapon drawn on you. You give him the money... without risking your lives.

Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 09:02 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
266,560 is a pretty low number.

I'm sure that those victims would find comfort in your words.
Quote:
There are 327 million of us in the United States.

Let me take the lead here for a moment. There are roughly 32,000 gun deaths per year in the United States. Of those, around 60% are suicides. About 3% are accidental deaths. Based on your comment above, I'm sure I can count on you to determine that 15,000 or so victims "is a pretty low number.
Quote:
No one I have told this story to has suggested the outcome would have been any different had I been armed. I don't think that even the nuttiest of gun nuts would have drawn their weapon in this circumstance.

What does that have to do with my right to have a gun for home protection?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 09:10 pm
@Glennn,
max wrote:
266,560 [out of 327.2 million] is a pretty low number.

Glennn wrote:
I'm sure that those victims would find comfort in your words.


The approximately 326,933,440 people who weren't victims are pretty happy about this statistic. Wink

The point I am making is that the risk of facing violence during a burglary is statistically very low. Having an exaggerated fear over something that is unlikely to ever happen is irrational.

Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 09:18 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The point I am making is that the risk of facing violence during a burglary is statistically very low.

And how statistically low is the risk of being killed by a gun? I mean, given the fact that there's a couple hundred million guns in the U.S.
Quote:
Having an exaggerated fear over something that is unlikely to ever happen is irrational.

So now you've determined that anyone who owns a gun for home protection has an exaggerated fear.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 09:23 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 people),[6][7] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 people).[8] These deaths included 21,175 suicides,[8] 11,208 homicides,[9] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[8]


From wikipedia. I don't have any reason to believe these numbers aren't accurate, but there are sources listed.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 09:28 pm
@maxdancona,
So, given the number of guns in the country, and the number of shootings you came up with, minus the suicides, is the statistical risk of being shot more or less than the statistical risk of being a victim of violence as a result of a burglary?
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 09:46 pm
Hmm . . . something happened to your post, max. I was in the process of answering it, and it just disappeared. You were saying something about the difference between the statistical risk of being the victim of violence as the result of a burglary and the statistical risk of being shot. Could you please repost it? I'll check bac sometime tomorrow.

Thanks.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jan, 2020 11:59 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
That's wrong. There doesn't have to be a single feature that makes the weapon a danger to the public to justify outlawing it.

That is incorrect. The government is not allowed to restrict a fundamental right unless the restriction can be justified as serving a compelling government interest.

A compelling government interest was irrelevant in regard to the challenges against the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
The danger is that these weapons are specifically designed for assault.

Setting aside for a moment the fact that only the versions with a selective fire switch were designed for assault, merely having been designed for assault does not mean that a weapon is necessarily a danger to the public.

These weapons were designed for assault with the only difference from their military issue counterparts being selective fire, which makes them a danger to the public.
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Jan, 2020 12:07 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
These weapons were designed for assault with the only difference from their military issue counterparts being selective fire, which makes them a danger to the public.

Uh huh. And that difference is exactly why the military doesn't use the civilian version of the AR-15. It doesn't qualify as an assault weapon because it lacks select-fire capability.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Jan, 2020 12:16 am
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:

Quote:
One thing is that flash suppresors aid shooters, another thing trying to base that claim on police and witness reports. One doesn't need police and witness reports to verify that flash supprsors aid shooters.

It's one thing to say that flash suppressors aid murderers. It's another thing to say that a rifle should be banned because it has a flash suppressor.

That's correct.

Glennn wrote:
The reason being that there is no instance on record to show that a flash suppressor made a murderer more successful. You're going to have to produce an instance in which a flash suppressor changed anything about a shooting or mass shooting. Perhaps if you could find some news report or law enforcement official claiming that a murderer's location was a mystery because of a flash suppressor. So, you go find an incident in which that was the case. Otherwise, your claim here can be chalked up to hysteria.

That's not my claim.

Glennn wrote:

Quote:
So, there is no actual cause of innocent people being killed by drunk drivers, exactly, the cause is all about trick questions.

There's nothing tricky about my question. What you don't like about it is that it's straightforward and it calls your reasoning into question.

You didn't start with a question. You had started with a declaration, "so you're all for drunk driving laws, but you don't agree that we should ban the actual cause of innocent people being killed by drunk drivers." I asked you to clarify what you meant by "the actual cause of innocent people being killed by drunk drivers." You've been cagey ever since about clarifying what you meant, and have made it into some kind of "gotcha" game. Whatever.

Glennn wrote:
So let's go back and find out why you hold the contradictory position of condemning the drunk driver instead of the alcohol for the loss of life, but condemning the gun instead of the murderer for the loss of life.

Where, exactly, did I express that position?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jan, 2020 01:21 am
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:
And according to the video, he is quoted as saying, "If you want to have a gun in your home, I think you're pretty stupid." Which shows that he is too dimwitted to understand that what he is saying is: It's pretty stupid to decide to have the means to protect yourself and your family from a home invader.

Good catch. I totally missed that. But now that you drew my attention to it I went and looked it up.

"It's like smoking: I've always defended your right to smoke. I think you're crazy, but I don't think we should take away your right. I do think we should take away your right to smoke where other people have to breathe your smoke. But if you go outside away from everybody else, I don't have a problem with that. And if you want to have a gun in your house, I think you're pretty stupid -- particularly if you have kids -- but I guess you have a right to do that. Someday, there is going to be a suit against parents who smoke in their houses or have guns in their houses by a kid. It's not that far-fetched."

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/michael-bloomberg-isnt-afraid-of-the-nra-83455/
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Jan, 2020 01:25 am
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:

Quote:
How is that dishonest?

You made the claim that the military does use semiautomatic rifles. Of course they don't. But having made the claim, you needed to extricate yourself from the position of having been caught making yet another unproven claim. So you decided that since one of the settings on a select-fire rifle is for semiautomatic fire, you could push the idea that that makes that rifle a semiautomatic rifles.

Heh, having a semiautomatic option on a selective fire rifle does make it a semiautomatic rifle, among its other options. You ASSumed that I meant that these rifles are exclusively semiautomatic. Expanding on the point I had made in regard to these assault weapons having an increased danger factor—before your attempt to derail it with your ASSumptive tangent about semiautomaticity—semiautomatic mode on a military issue rifle doesn't make it any less effective, any less dangerous in its purpose. The military prescribes the use of semiautomatic mode in its rifles for most situations, conditions and purposes.

Glennn wrote:

Quote:
It's not contradictory to say that it's not about the features even though the features make a rifel especially dangerous.

That statement itself is contradictory.

How is that statement contradictory, exactly?

Glennn wrote:
And to make matters worse, it contains your original contradictory claim that, though it's the features that make the rifle especially dangerous, I should focus on the rifle, and not the features that make it dangerous.

Likewise, how is this statement contradictory, exactly?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jan, 2020 01:28 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The guy already has a weapon drawn on you. You give him the money... without risking your lives.

The existence of situations where having a gun is no help does not change that there are also situations where having a gun does help.

There are car accidents where wearing a seat belt is no help. But that does not change that seat belts do help in many car accidents.

If you are too close to a nuclear explosion, duck and cover will not help. But if you are in a zone of moderate damage, duck and cover will save your life.

There are tornadoes that are so severe that they will completely level a school with no survivors. But my school still trained with tornado drills because there are plenty of weaker tornadoes where sheltering away from windows would save our lives.


By the way, it is good to try to avoid situations where a criminal can come up on you without warning. I know that sometimes it's unavoidable. But sometimes it can be avoided.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jan, 2020 01:30 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Heh, having a semiautomatic option on a selective fire rifle does make it a semiautomatic rifle, among its other options. You ASSumed that I meant that these rifles are exclusively semiautomatic.

It's a reasonable assumption, since that is what semi-auto means in the English language.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jan, 2020 01:32 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The point I am making is that the risk of facing violence during a burglary is statistically very low. Having an exaggerated fear over something that is unlikely to ever happen is irrational.

When Barack Obama had the Centers for Disease Control do a study on gun violence, their minimum estimate of the number of Americans who defend themselves with guns every year was half a million.

That said, the odds of being in a really bad car accident are low, but people still wear seat belts to try to protect themselves. Low odds are no reason to not take precautions.
0 Replies
 
 

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