@Real Music,
Real Music wrote:
Quote:The important point is that the Democratic party is still labeling whole groups of Americans as "deplorable" (or nazi, or misogynist, etc.).
But some of those people truly are or nazi, or misogynist, etc.
Quote:This is a big problem for the Democratic party in 2020. They are going to have to not only have a positive message... they also have to find a way to reach out to these very voters in a respectful way.
I believe the democrats are presenting a positive message.
I also believe that the democrats are reaching out to voters in a respectful way.
That doesn't mean the democrats have to please every voter, because that is simply impossible.
I couldn't have asked for a clearer example of the tribalism that has deeply divided our nation.
In response to the assertion that
"the Democratic party is still labeling whole groups of Americans as "deplorable" (or nazi, or misogynist, etc.)", your response is
but some of them are.
I realize that you are not really being honest here, but let's look at the gist of the exchange:
Max is arguing that Democrats are shooting themselves in the foot, by grossly generalizing about their political opposition and in a
very exaggerated and insulting way. That they are turning off moderate Republicans and Democrats who know that the excessive and ugly demonization is not accurate.
Rather than acknowledging that the demonization is excessive and the possibility that you are ensuring that you will lose or fail to secure the support of those repulsed or threatened by this excess, you respond
"Well, some of them are demons." because, apparently, it is absolutely essential
to keep the record straight.
OK fine.
How many of them are? Precise numbers would be great but let's start with a ballpark figure.
Now, how do you know this? Something a little more precise than
"Because they voted for Trump!" would be helpful but if that's all you got, go with it.
Now, regardless of your answers to
How Many and
How Do You Know, maybe you think
"The hell with all so-called moderate Republicans. First of all, there's no such thing and even if there was, they still are not welcome in our tribe!"
If that's the case, that's fine too, but I would expect you to realize that your candidate can't win with just Democrat votes any more than mine can with just Republican ones. Since both tribes need independent votes you should ask yourself "What do Independent's think about this grossly generalized demonization?"
I think a great many so-called Independents are really just Democrats or Republicans who think an "Independent" designation on their voter registration card actually makes them independent-minded, but I also believe that most are fairly independent of the tribal dynamic of both parties which means they are more discerning when it comes to demonization of political figures and, for that matter, members of each of the two main political tribes. They don't, I believe, readily accept that all progressives are Antifa thugs with decent manners or that all conservatives are racist Nazis. What's more, I also believe that they are repulsed by hyperbolic demonization from both tribes and that this reaction figures in their voting decisions. If you find someone who is a self-identified "Independent" who believes that the majority of Trump voters are deplorable racists or the majority of Obama voters were closet socialists, you have found not only an idiot but a liar.
Despite what they might claim, most are not undecided about broad policy matters. It's not credible that an adult (even a very young one) has to carefully gather more facts and details about socialism and capitalism before deciding whether to vote for Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump. Rather, I believe, any indecision they may have has to do with how they feel about being associated with one tribe or the other due to the voting decision they make.
In one sense this may seem silly but in another, it is entirely reasonable. Max identifies the nature of Sanders' followers as his primary reason for refusing to vote for the man when, of course, he would not be voting for those followers. However, the sort of people who are attracted to a political figure does tell us something about that figure that could be of importance. If you truly believe that the followers of one or the other candidates are, in the main, the worst sort of people their side of the ideological spectrum produces or attracts, then you are very unlikely to vote for that candidate, regardless of how they present themselves personally. In your case, you believe Trump and his supporters to be equally deplorable. In max's case, it appears that he finds Bernie's supporters considerably more noxious than the old socialist himself.
I think for most Independents it's often a case of finding both tribes to be distasteful in their own ways and having to decide which one is most tolerable or less noxious and their relative independence from partisan tribal dynamics allows their self-interest and the interests of the nation to play a significantly more important role in their decision making than any sense of tribal loyalty.
A member of the Democrat/Left Tribe may be concerned that far-left policy proposals will wreck the economy and retard or end their personal prosperity, but voting for a Republican (and especially Trump) is a non-starter. Most of them will sublimate their concerns to the imperative of not only victory for their tribe, but the defeat of the other. (Members of the Republican/Right Tribe are not immune from this dynamic and a similar scenario can be constructed for them) In each case, the tribal member most likely thinks that he or she is being altruistic rather than delusional because the choice facing them is Good vs Evil.
Because the voters who are not held in thrall by the Manichean vision imposed by partisan tribalism they can weigh all factors, policy, personality, and self-interest and come up with a lesser of two evils decision.
Gross and insulting generalizations about one tribe by the other don't only risk repelling so-called Independents who are far more Democrat or Republican than they will admit, they risk repelling what I would call true independents simply because they represent dishonest and or fanatical thinking and behavior.
Just about everyone decries political demonization and this certainly goes for those who engage in it. The distinction is that independents are able to discern it on both sides while partisan tribal members believe only the other tribe engages in it and anything that looks like it from their tribe is simply truth-telling e.g. "But some of those people truly are or nazi, or misogynist, etc."
Partisan tribalists like yourself take refuge in your use of the words like some. Of course, some Trump supporters are vile people, just as some Democrat partisans are (Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein, Ed Buck...to name three). This being the case, what is the need for or purpose of your comment? It's because you feel compelled to declare your certitude that the sum of some vile Republicans far, far outweighs the sum of some deplorable Democrats.
Virtually every campaign of every politician of either party seeks to define their opponents: The other persons running, his or her party, and his or her supporters. None of them ever seek to do so in glowing terms or even fairly. It occurs because a) It's compelled by tribal instinct and b) It can be very effective. It can, however, also backfire when it becomes excessive and repulsive to voters who don't allow partisan tribalism to foul their thinking.
(It's important, I think, to note that there are Independent voters and there are voters who self-identify as party members who are independent of tribal strictures. Not all of the latter are tribalists and not all of the former are independent-minded, but the non-tribal, independent-minded voters truly are the ones who determine elections results)
It may be that the Right does engage in the same frequency, severity, and intensity of demonization as the Left. I don't think so, but I admit to being biased. It's not important though what you or I believe on this score. There is absolutely no chance that you will vote for Trump in 2020 or that I will vote for whoever may be the Dem nominee. However, independent-minded voters will be judging the issue and it could easily be a major factor in their decision-making process. Independents who agree that Democrats have reached the point where they declare everyone and everything they don't like as being racist are quite likely to think:
"Geeze, I don't agree with them on everything. If I voice a contrary position will I be labeled a racist? If I slip up and say I think there are only two genders, will I be harassed on Facebook and damned for being a deplorable, bigoted transphobe? Do I want them to have the power of the government behind them?"
So my advice to you and your fellow tribesmen is: KEEP IT UP! Keep telling the truth about vile rightwingers!
Don't worry, "moderate" Democrats aren't bothered by it (and if they are, why do you need those damned Blue Dogs in your tribe!). Rest easy, Independents and independent-minded voters believe you. They're not worried that they might someday get caught up in your vicious hysteria.
You all know that max is a phony so don't pay any attention to him. He says he is a progressive, supports virtually every progressive policy and can regurgitate every progressive platitude and slogan that's been written or said, but you know he's not really a member of your tribe. He doesn't accept 100% of your tribe's dogma and he clearly has a sick hatred of women. Pay him no mind!
No worries that you will pay any attention to Lash. You all have her pegged: She's a devious Republican troll! Hell, she may even be a Russian operative. She's only here to sow dissent among you so stand together and reject anything she writes!
I'm really proud of how diligent you guys have been here too. It seemed for a while that edgarblythe might have also had you all fooled into thinking he was a fellow member of your tribe, but by the tone and content of your recent exchanges with him, it's clear that you guys have unearthed another apostate or mole.
Keep up the good work!
