I will not vote for Bernie Sanders

Oops. It's Bernie Sanders not Bernie Sander, so it's Sanders' supporters.

At least I spotted it.

So you must really like Trump, eh max?

I went back and looked. I don't see anything I said that might lead you that impression.

I've not seen you deny your love of Hitler. You must be a Hitler loving Nazi.

Why are you a Nazi sympathizer?

Since JTT has reemerged you seem to be on some personal mission to show you're the daftest idiot on A2K.

Here's a bit of logic even Max should be able to follow. Max said he would not vote for Sanders so if Sanders wins the Dem nomination it follows Max will be supporting Trump by refusing to vote for the only person who would stand a chance of beating Trump.

Sturgis has no such problems because Hitler is not standing in the presidential election. Hitler died in a bunker in 1945.

If it still seems a bit hazy ask a grown up to explain it to you.

Your logic leads to this conclusion:

Not Voting == Voting for Trump

I think there is something wrong with your logic (which is good, because if all the Americans who don't vote count as votes for Trump, the Democrats are screwed anyway).

You've been a tacit supporter of Trump all along, just because you like to pretend to be a liberal doesn't mean anyone else is fooled.

I've yet to see one of your posts where you criticise the far right.

All you do is attack everyone left of centre, especially those who dare to criticise Nazis, who you label as foolish.

Now you can go off and play your silly logic games all by yourself same in the knowledge that nobody is fooled by your simple minded fascism.

The problem here is the implication that I owe my vote to the Democrats.

This attitude leads the Democrats to demand my vote instead of trying to earn it. Voters don't want be taken for granted. The Democrats lost a lot of voters 2016 who voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012.

Hillary Clinton believed that the deserved the presidency, and she had no doubt that people would vote for her. What else would they do?

Hopefully the Democrats have learned their lesson.

The problem here is that you lie about being a Democrat and being a moderate while all the time espousing the virtues of the far right.

The Democrat party won't be doing itself any favours by trying to attract extremists like you.

Why not form your own party so you can campaign on taking the vote away from women and criminalising criticism of the far right.

You don't seem understand how democracy works. Over the next year the "Democrat party [sic]" will be calling me repeatedly to ask me for my vote.

The whole point of an election is to attract voters. Insulting us is not a good strategy.

(Someone explain to Izzy why his use of thr term "Democrat party" made me chuckle).

You've got one vote, that's all you've got, no different from anyone else.

I've gone out campaigning for Labour and I know full well how democracy works. We don't waste time on fussy prima donnas like you who think their vote entitles them to be treated like royalty. We move on talk to the serious people and the undecided, we talk about issues that affect them and how to make things better.

All I know about you for certain Max is that you're a liar, you also seem very narcissistic, self centred, manipulative and sympathetic to far right views.

The Democrat party shouldn't be wasting time on your vote, it's just not worth it, time can be much better spent elsewhere. The only person getting something out of it is you, because you've got another victim to bore to death with your poor Max stories.

This is rich! Izzy is from a country that is about to crash out of Europe, where a monarch just suspended parliament. The UK is royally screwed, and I mean that literally, They are being screwed over by an actual queen at the behest of her un-elected representative.

We don't have royalty in the US. We don't have people who inherit positions in government. What we have is a system of government where parties have to appeal to voters... a candidate who insults voters loses the election.

Izzy is not really in a position to be giving Americans (or anyone else) lectures in democracy. After a disastrous Brexit vote they literally shut down democracy.

I wish the Brits and the Russians would butt out of American elections.

Izzythepush wrote to: Maxdancona
You've got one vote, that's all you've got, no different from anyone else.


Izzy is making an excellent and very relevant point.

This isn't about me (as much as Izzy thinks it is).

Hillary Clinton called voters "deplorables". She thought she was insulting a small group of voters who didn't matter. What she really did is told a large group of voters that she looked down on them and didn't care what they thought. She was saying in effect the same thing Izzy was saying; "if you don't agree with me then you aren't worth talking to".

The left is coming to this election with an us versus them attitude. Anyone who disagrees with them about anything then you aren't worth bothering with. I will point out again that some people voted for Obama and then voted for Trump. These voters will vote for the Democratic candidate... if the candidate treats them with respect and works to earn their vote (this doesn't mean capitulate, it just means listening with respect).

Insulting voters is not a good electoral strategy. Whoever is the Democratic candidate is going to have to figure out a way to get the outraged left wing of the party to shut up.

Of course Izzy is just here to troll. He doesn't have any say in the upcoming American election. He will be able to watch the results on TV (assuming the electricity is still working in England at that time).

1. Max, sometimes you are no different from Lash.

2. I actually like and respect Hillary Clinton while both you and Lash despise Hillary Clinton.

3. The difference between me and the two of you, is I have moved on from Hillary Clinton, because she is not running in 2020.

4. Regardless of your opinion of Clinton, she is not running in 2020.

5. Max, you seem to be obsessed with Hillary Clinton, even though Clinton is not running.

6. Lash is also obsessed with Hillary Clinton, even though Clinton is not running.

7. Another thing is that Lash always like to assert a false equivalence of conservative republicans to establishment democrats.

8. You Max always like to assert a false equivalence of the far left to trump supporters.



False Equivalence Description: An argument or claim in which two completely opposing arguments appear to be logically equivalent when in fact they are not. The confusion is often due to one shared characteristic between two or more items of comparison in the argument that is way off in the order of magnitude, oversimplified, or just that important additional factors have been ignored.

1. I believe that the former Hillary Clinton supporters are the greatest risk to the Democrats this cycle. Her style of entitled, self-righteous politics that declares that dissent is "deplorable" is the reason that Trump is president. If the "Clinton" wing of the part doesn't get stifled, the Democrats will lose again.

2. It is a fact the Democrats need to win states that Trump won in 2016. This likely means that the Democrats need to win over voters that voted for Trump in 2016. These are not angry White Women in pink hats.

3. I don't understand why agreeing with Lash is a bad thing. I agree with you sometimes too. I think this counts as an ad hominem... it certainly isn't a logically valid point.

Please specify what false equivalence you think I am making in this thread. You can provide quotes of what I actually said. (If you are dragging in impressions from other threads... then this belongs in the feud thread).

You seem to be attacking people rather than making valid points. Actually, I think that is the point.

I'm trying to grasp what you're saying, Max.

You do realize, Hilary isn't even running in any campaign, let alone for President in 2020. Yet you continually bring that up as if it's pertinent. It's not.

You've said that the Democratic party has called you, multiple times, to ASK for your vote, yet you claim they're DEMANDING you to vote for their ticket. I'm just not seeing it.

So, I have to ask, who is insulting you and your beliefs? What particular candidate has got your cross hairs up to make you believe 1) Hilary is running for President, 2) who has actually insulted your core beliefs, 3) which catch phrase a candidate thus far has insulted you, 4) who has not treated the American people with respect, 5) why you think outrage is a detriment to get people to vote in a different direction, 6) why you think people need to shut up, 7) which candidate is against you in particular, 8) which particular issue will turn your vote from democratic to republican, knowing who the republican candidate is Donald Trump, 9) if you really want a change from the current president, and 10) what steps have you taken to influence how you want the future to go?

Did you read my last post? Hillary isn't running, but the base that supported her hasn't gone away. The left is seen as self-righteous and outraged for good reason. If they don't change, the Democratic candidate will have trouble beating Trump.



Did you bother to read this thread? I have made is clear that the problem isn't a candidate (in this case Bernie). The problem is the left-wing core that is supporting him.

A successful Democratic candidate is going to reach outside of the ideological bubble. This means that the Democratic candidate is going to have to reach out to people who disagree with the left-wing base on many issues. Many people on the left label anyone who disagrees with you on anything as a nazi or a misogynist. This is going to have to stop.

Bernie has become a divisive candidate... through no fault of his own. The left wing that supports him has become untenable. The other candidates are going to have to walk a tightrope, placating an outraged base while reaching out beyond the ideological bubble.

If you haven't done so already, read the responses to this thread from Izzy and RealMusic. They make my point better than I do.

Izzy was arguing that anyone who wears a red MAGA hat is a nazi. Of course there are millions of people who have warn a MAGA hat, some of whom voted for Obama.

Do you think that writing off these voters by calling them nazis is the right thing to do? Or would it be better to let the candidate make a pitch to these voters and pull them into a winning coalition that includes a cross-section of America.