How Powerful is Satan?

I can't speak for derevon, but for me it was the only explanation that I could come up with. There are a lot of things that I do not understand yet I accept them. I believe that is where the faith that is much talked about comes in. If it was all logical it would not take faith to believe in it.

Maybe the devil of the Bible is not really a real fallen angel but is just our own consciences. Is that more acceptable?

Who can know the mind of God? Who can be His advisor? I'm not even sure one can talk about motives when it comes to God. He created us to love, and for us to love Him back, because it so pleased Him. That's good enough for me, because I have no doubts regarding His infinite love and the perfection of His divine will.

That is one question I have never been able to resolve, either. Why does god need our worship? A related question, Deveron, is: How can you "offend" a perfect being by not loving it? I have debated off and on with someone I know for many years about the possible nature of god. My friend says that god must have a personality because she is greater than we are, and we have personalities, so god must at the very least encompass all of our qualitites and many more. My argument is that a personality is a hindrance, a negative, in seeking a perfect life. Personality involves feelings, emotions, loves, hates, etc., and thus god should be without personality...pure being, pure spirit, pure energy.

Equally puzzling to me is how an omnipotent god, and a god of pure love, would consign certain of his creation to burn in hellfire for all eternity. If god is omniscient as well as all-powerful, then he can see through to the motives of all of his creation, and isn't perfect understanding the key to perfect forgiveness, which would never allow such action?

How do you turn away from selfishness and act only selflessly? I remember a tale that I read many years ago, purportedly true, of a remote group of nuns who had had no contact with civilization for many years when it happened that a plane went down on their remote island. One of the younger nuns was running to help the plane's occupants when an older sister stopped her, saying "It would be more charitable to let one of the older sisters here go to help. Some of them have not seen a person from the outside world for decades."

Kara
All your questions will be answered when you realize that the God of the bible is the creation of man.

I can't read Genesis without thinking 'who was there to witness creation? Did God keep a diary?

If there were an observer, how did they know what they were observing?

I know, I wondered the same thing.

The answer I was invariably given was: "This was written by men who God gave a vision to later on..."

So I guess sometime back in history these people had these visions inspired by God to write this stuff.

But true, interestingly, you never hear who wrote a lot of this stuff. Its like ghost writers or something. Or more precisely, spirit writers.

God is infinitely much more than a mere person. Personality is just one of countless aspects of God, for nothing that exists has existence independently/outside of God. As for the negative aspects you mentioned, it doesn't necessarily follow that God personified must have all of those. By the way, from God's point of view, what better way to allow people to relate to you than to manifest yourself as a universal and eternal personality?



Nothing can be known for sure about hell, exactly what it is, and who goes there. My guess would be that it is a state/place/whatever for those who have nothing good left in them, who hate God and refuse to accept His mercy.



Selflessness is a fruit of love to God and to the neighbour. He who loves God, and consequently his neighbour, will more or less automatically act selflessly, for a person does that which is in his heart.

au and Ge, I have always thought that Genesis was a contemporary rewriting or reworking of myths that have existed from all time, created by earliest man to explain a world that he did not understand. Whoever wrote Genesis and the account of creation was using myths and symbols and perhaps analogy to describe something that could be described no other way.

I have read often that many of the stories in the Bible can be found in one form or another in much earlier writings.

I think we need myths and symbols to help us define the undefinable, questions about the origin of man, what is his purpose, and how he should live his life. The problem with the myths and symbols is that, the more we learn from science about the origins of our universe, the less we have any faith in the ancient tales.

Deveron, I respect your faith, and I find your answers beautiful but etherial and out-of-reach for me. Not having your faith, and unable to make that leap, I can only look with wonder on your belief.

Wht is 'the revolt of the angels' .....

Ge, if you take Milton as the authority:

The story of Satan's rebellion is being narrated to Adam by the Archangel Raphael. In the first part of Paradise Lost Satan is found immediately after his fall; he and his fellow angels then plot the downfall of God's new creation, humanity. As Satan leaves to somehow thwart humanity, God sends Raphael down to earth to warn Adam of the impending danger&emdash;in this way, according to God, humans will have no excuse if the temptation succeeds. To explain the danger, Raphael explains the entire history of the fall of the angels, the battle in heaven between the good and bad angels, and the subsequent creation of Adam and Eve.

Absolutely correct from an atheistic point of view. A theist would also agree with the second part of your post, Phoenix. Satan has no power at all except to tempt. Mankind being quite susceptible to temptations, that's still quite a lot of power. (Bear in mind that the following is not necessarily my opinion, but an explication of the standard theistic point of view.) God, of course, could get rid of Satan. But that would not be a godlike thing to do. This earth is not supposed to be paradisical. Men and women are allowed to be tempted in order that they may practice their free will and resist the temptation. Satan, according to the Bible, is merely a fallen angel. It is quite incorrect to think of Satan as God's opposite number. Satan's opposite number in the Christianic pantheon is Michael, the Archangel.

I haven't read the responses in this thread much beyond Phoenix's post, quoted above. So, if somebody else has already said something similar earlier, my sincere apologies.

Carry on.

The origin of the myth of Noah's ark



The catastrophic deluge which entered the
Black Sea, circa 7,500 years ago



Quotations

"The [Black Sea] flood is a fascinating story, all the better for being told by working scientists. What comes across clearly is the thrill of discovery....The mixture of disciplines and ways of doing science is exhilarating and paints a realistic picture of the way research works." Sue Bowler of the New Scientist.


"...an interesting and provocative story.... a detective story that rollicks along, sweeping up everything in its path..." Richard Ellis, The New York Times Book Review


"The Sumerian 'Deluge' story, the Akkakian 'Atrahasis' epic, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and Noah's Flood are 7000 year old echoes of this awesome event." A book reviewer from Arlington VA on the Amazon.com web site




Overview

Two senior scientists from Columbia University have proposed a theory that a massive transfer of water occurred about 5600 BCE - over seven and a half millennia ago. They wrote: "Ten cubic miles of water poured through each day, two hundred times what flows over Niagara Falls." "The Bosporus flume roared and surged at full spate for at least three hundred days." 60,000 square miles of land were inundated. 1 The Black Sea shoreline significantly expanded to the north and east. The lake's its water level was raised many hundreds of feet. It changed from a fresh-water landlocked lake into a salt water lake connected to the world's oceans.

They have drawn on the findings of experts in agriculture, archaeology, genetics, geology, language, development of textiles and pottery, etc. They postulate that this deluge had catastrophic effects on the people living on the shore of the Black Sea. It triggered mass migrations across Europe and into the Near East, Middle East and Egypt. It may have been the source of many flood stories in the area. Some researchers believe that the story of Noah's flood in the Biblical book of Genesis is a myth that had its origin in this cataclysmic event.

A book by William Ryan and Walter Pitman describes one of the most fascinating scientific puzzles of recent years. We found it far more riveting than any detective novel. 1



Religious significance

About 300 cultures around the world have stories of a massive flood. 2 In Judeo-Christian countries, the most famous is the story of Noah's Flood, as recorded in the Bible: Genesis, chapters 6 to 8.

The story of the  worldwide flood of Noah has fueled conflicts between geologists and Christians since the early 19th century - long before Darwin was born. 

Conservative Christians generally believe that the the book of Genesis was written by Moses under the inspiration of God. Thus, the original Hebrew text of Genesis was preserved from all error. The worldwide flood happened just as Moses recorded it: all humans and animals were exterminated, except for those who made it to safety on the ark: 2 or 7 animals of each "kind," and Noah, his wife, and family. Considering the percentage of the human race who were killed, it can be argued that the universal flood was the largest genocide in history, involving the extermination of all almost every man, woman, youth, child, infant and newborn. The catastrophic filling of the Black Sea might have happened, but it is unrelated to the Noahic flood for three reasons:  The timing is wrong. The Noahic flood happened circa 2350 BCE; the Black Sea deluge apparently happened circa 5600 BCE, over three millennia earlier. 3
The area covered by the flood is wrong. The Noahic flood was universal -- it covered the entire world to a level above that of the tallest mountains. The Black Sea merely enlarged the borders of the lake to its present size, and raised it level by only a few hundred feet. The Genesis account states that God's intention was to exterminate the entire human race in the most complete act of genocide ever performed; he left only 8 people alive: Noah, his wife, three sons and three daughters-in-law. In order to accomplish this, then entire world must have been submerged in water.
God intentionally triggered the physical processes that would lead to the extermination of all of the land animals and all but eight humans in the flood because of humanity's sinful behavior. It was not an event that simply happened naturally, due to the rise in ocean levels. 
The reality of the worldwide flood forms a vital part of the belief system of conservative Christians -- particularly those who are Creation Scientists. They have based their theories of astrophysics, geology, paleontology, linguistics, and anthropology upon the creation, flood and Tower of Babel stories in the book of Genesis. In particular, they hold the universal flood responsible for the deposit of massive amounts of sediment in successive layers. This, in turn, solidified to produce the layers of rock observed by geologists.


Liberal Christians typically regard the Noahic, Babylonian, and hundreds of other flood stories as a myths. Many might linked in some way with a historical flood. The legend of a universal, worldwide flood, as in the Genesis account, might be an interesting myth with spiritual significance; however, it did not happen in reality. There is no source of sufficient water to produce a world-wide flood that covered the highest mountains. Even if it did happen, there is no place to which the flood waters could subside. Genesis was written over an interval of many centuries by at least five author/editors.  The universal flood story was derived from an earlier Babylonian myth by two of these authors. The Genesis flood myth is obviously based on an earlier Babylonian myth; there are many correspondences between the two legends. The Babylonian myth appears to be based on an earlier legend that, in turn, might well have been based on dimly remembered memories of the Black Sea catastrophe. 

How powerful is satan? I think Buffy, Spike, and Santa Claus working together could take him. But since the show is cancelled, I guess it's up to Santa and Rudolph.

Now. How about a question for somebody out of their teens?

LOL. Surely you must mean younger than their teens?

How old is a mind that compares religion to pro wrestling? 11 or 12 or so?

God is that little part of you that is familiar with all the other parts .... except himself. To find the creator, seek within where you will discover, you ... are guiding him.

I have grown so far away
I am but
the words I say
yet of these sounds
with which I play
none can delete
the end of day

Interesting poem, it seems almost in code. But then a lot of poems are.

Are you trying to say that when a person prays to God for example they are really guiding themselves like some kind of self help therapy?

Sometime I wake up with a thought and share it in hopes of a translation ...

When you dream you dream in metaphors. I don't know why but I write in metaphor.
You mention 'code' ... a reasonable substitute for metaphor.

Did'nt answer your question .... sorry

Let me answer by provoking thought with the question 'what is thought'?

Gel, you are deeper than I 'thought.'

thought is an idea or your conscience.

I think I get your answer.

Obviously as i have exepressed my beliefs I don't agree that God is merely the other side of ourselves. For me without God it all just seems so pointless.

But I don't see the need to ram my beliefs onto others. Kind of come up short in my spreading gospel duties, I guess.

Not deep ....just a burned out hippy freak that had a talk with God shortly after a couple of shrooms chased with a a button shake. All in all he's a pretty pleasant dude ...Revelations aside

He told me to stop praying ... said it was annoying and that I should take more responsibilty for myself.

Don't forget that when you pray, Satan is in there too.