How Powerful is Satan?

Derevon wrote:

Of course, God is almighty and Satan couldn't roam the world unless God allowed it, which he currently does for a limited amount of time to test the faithful.

Why do we need to be tested?

I was born to be tested? "Okay, you're born. Now, onto the tests!"

Lets say someone is born again and has accepted Jesus as their personal savior.

Why does god need to let Satan roam around to test people?

It seems almost adolescent.

This is all a big test to see if we can avoid falling under Satan?

"Here let me put these rats in a cage. And here, let's put this good tasting poison over here. If they drink it, the rats will be tortured forever.

If they avoid the poison and follow the maze correctly, they can escape the suffering. Okay, here we go, let the tests begin.

And lets add to the mix that we'll give the rats some old books that can be used as guidebooks in the maze, and these books were written thousands of years ago, and everyone is arguing over which guidebooks are right or even the right version or which books should be included or how to interpret the instructions in the guidebook for navigating the maze "

This sounds like some (sadistic) teenager's game. ???

Why would a god be this cruel?

(I am not trying to attack anyone or their religion. I am honestly trying to understand the belief system, how it all works, how it all fits together. It just seems kind of bizarre. But perhaps I can learn more about it...)

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ExtraMedium, it does seem that religious fundamentalists are intellectually immature if only because they do not see the profound immaturity in the motives of their god, i.e., his creation of mankind only to test him. Also, if god's central ambition is to create humans (in his image) that pass the tests he puts before them, why in the cosmos did he build an entire cosmos? He must be a very insincere over achiever.

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JLNobody wrote:

He must be a very insincere over achiever.

LOL!

Yes, that darn God!

One thing you gotta say about him, he goes all out for his project entry in the Science Fair!

A nice sphere called earth with a couple other planets and maybe a sun would have been just fine.

But no, no, the showoff has add in all these galaxies and black holes and other solar systems and stars and pulsars and asteroids and quasars and comets not to mention quarks! ad infinitum

Perhaps that is just another test of faith. Those are all just pretty lights, bells, and whistles that are meant to distract you. Heck, those things might be the work of Satan!

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Look at it this way:

If everything in the world was perfect and easy, if no sacrifice was needed to choose that which is good, if there was nothing tempting about evil, then what would the merit be in this choice?

Tribulations and hardships are like the tools which the potterer uses to shape his clay. God uses them to fashion us in accordance with the likeness of His divine image. To the same degree that we love God, to the same degree are we also prepared to make self-sacrifices for Him. By leading a spiritual life, His love gradually increases in us, and the magnitude of the sacrifices which He asks for increases proportionally. In the Bible we have the perfect example of God's own Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, who so loved His Heavenly Father that He accepted to take all the sins of mankind upon Himself. No sacrifice could possibly be greater than that. If we truly wish to do the will of God, we should try to follow in His footsteps.

It is important, though, to remember that all human beings are sinners, and that we still have to rely on God's divine mercy for our salvation, no matter how good lives we live. It is in this wonderful mercy all sinners should place their hope. God has the power to forgive even the most hardened sinner and to purify him from his sins if he shows sincere repentance for his misdeeds. Therefore it doesn't necessarily follow, as you suggested, that the "rat poison of eternal torment" is what awaits all those who yield to the temptations.

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Derevon,

Thanks for that.

You seem to have a good handle on this faith.

One question: I read the New Testament several times, and one part says "All can be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Spirit."

What do you think that sin is? What do you think the unforgiveable sin is?

Interestingy, I've asked a few reverends and priests this question.

The replies I've got usually amount to something along the lines of "hmmm...we debated that in Theology Seminar, and we continue to debate it, and the answer depends who you ask."

Any ideas?

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Derevon wrote:

Look at it this way:If everything in the world was perfect and easy, if no sacrifice was needed to choose that which is good, if there was nothing tempting about evil, then what would the merit be in this choice?

Hmmm...

I see your point, but I'm not so sure.

Assume your model is correct.

Same question: what is the merit in choosing that which is good?

I have a choice to choose that which is good and then be in heaven eternally in unequalled bliss.

Or I can choose that which is "ungood" and have fun for a short 80 years or so, and then go to Hell forever.

Hmmmm....which one should I choose?

Seems like if I choose that which is good, I am still choosing it for that reward of heaven and eternal bliss.

Where is the merit in that choice? I'm just being selfish! Doing what is best for me!

Now, if I chose to go to Hell forever so that someone else could enjoy heaven, I could see that as almost a meritous choice.

But if I am choosing something so I can go to Heaven and get all those wonderful rewards, where is the merit in that? Thats the selfish & easy choice, seems to me!

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Extra medium,

My guess is that "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" applies to those who have accepted God, who have been filled with the Holy Spirit and yet turned to reject Him.

Someone who profanes that which he does not know, doesn't really know what he is talking about, and as such it is not profanity in the ultimate sense. On the other hand, he who has experienced God's love, and turned against that which is holy, despite being familiar with its nature, has committed the ultimate act of profanity, and shall therefore never be forgiven.

This is just how I interpret things, though, and I may of course be wrong.

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extra medium wrote:

Assume your model is correct.

Same question: what is the merit in choosing that which is good? I have a choice to choose that which is good and then be in heaven eternally in unequalled bliss. Or I can choose that which is "ungood" and have fun for a short 80 years or so, and then go to Hell forever. Hmmmm....which one should I choose? Seems like if I choose that which is good, I am still choosing it for that reward of heaven and eternal bliss. Where is the merit in that choice? I'm just being selfish! Doing what is best for me!

On the contrary, by choosing God you reject yourself, and if you love God that is what you desire to do. The smaller you are, the greater God can be to you. To live for oneself and for that which is worldly is the polar opposite of living for God and for one's neighbour. A person can never approach God with himself in mind. He must set aside his own ego and forsake the world, and instead focus on love to God and to one's neighbour. There is absolutely nothing egoistical about this. On the contrary, one's efforts can be of great use to lots of souls. If your own salvation would not be motivation enough, perhaps helping to save others from perdition would be?

Quote:

Now, if I chose to go to Hell forever so that someone else could enjoy heaven, I could see that as almost a meritous choice. But if I am choosing something so I can go to Heaven and get all those wonderful rewards, where is the merit in that? Thats the selfish & easy choice, seems to me!

I believe we are all intended for Heaven, and I wouldn't worry about there not being enough "space" for all of us. The concept of accepting hell in ransom for someone else would be extremely contradictory in my opinion, and it's certainly not anything I believe in. A person who would accept such a thing would never belong in hell in the first place.

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Derevon wrote:

On the contrary, by choosing God you reject yourself, and if you love God that is what you desire to do. The smaller you are, the greater God can be to you. To live for oneself and for that which is worldly is the polar opposite of living for God and for one's neighbour. A person can never approach God with himself in mind. He must set aside his own ego and forsake the world, and instead focus on love to God and to one's neighbour.

You have some of the better (making sense to me) answers I have seen on these topics. Thanks.

Now, regarding the above--

When you "Choose God and reject yourself, and you love God" etc., how do you know you that you haven't just created this illusion/fantasy in your mind regarding "loving this God" when in reality all you are doing is loving yourself and this wonderful fantasy & loving this complex mental trick you have created all in your mind?

How do you know its not all in your head and you are simply loving that?

I will grant you that if it all results in you being kinder to others, etc, well thats another level of a good thing happening.

But how can you know that this God thing you are talking about to Love, this thing, how do you know its not just a Beautiful & Attractive Fantasy?

Is this where Faith comes in?

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Exactly. When the Holy Spirit fills one, all doubts about God's Love vanish. It is simply not possible to doubt that it is God's love that one experiences. No one who has experienced it can possibly believe he/she is deluding himself/herself. This kind of faith is very, very, substantial.

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If we are selfish beings, as we must be in order to survive, then is not our biggest challenge to "love our neighbor as ourself"? Or to love anyone or anything more than ourself? However, if we have a "generous gene," is it not explainable in that man cannot survive alone without the help of a group and thus he has a helping instinct that encourages him to assist his group-mates or tribe.

Does our need for a god lead us to find or create one and convince us of its existence? If god is omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, why does she need to be worshipped by her human creation?

.

Quote:

To live for oneself and for that which is worldly is the polar opposite of living for God and for one's neighbour.

extramedium, what do you mean by this? How do you live for God and for your neighbor? Do you give up all worldly possessions and go among your fellow men and speak of God, give your last pennies to a neighbor? How do you live this life in today's world?

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Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and Psyche ..... each rule their own domain.
Is the question Satan is evil, or that God is good?

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Derevon wrote:

Exactly. When the Holy Spirit fills one, all doubts about God's Love vanish. It is simply not possible to doubt that it is God's love that one experiences. No one who has experienced it can possibly believe he/she is deluding himself/herself. This kind of faith is very, very, substantial.

This is why apostate ex-christians describe experiencing exactly that and then realising that it was false.

Damn those inconvenient facts!

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Kara wrote:

If we are selfish beings, as we must be in order to survive, then is not our biggest challenge to "love our neighbor as ourself"? Or to love anyone or anything more than ourself? However, if we have a "generous gene," is it not explainable in that man cannot survive alone without the help of a group and thus he has a helping instinct that encourages him to assist his group-mates or tribe.

Does our need for a god lead us to find or create one and convince us of its existence? If god is omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, why does she need to be worshipped by her human creation?

.
Quote:
To live for oneself and for that which is worldly is the polar opposite of living for God and for one's neighbour.

extramedium, what do you mean by this? How do you live for God and for your neighbor? Do you give up all worldly possessions and go among your fellow men and speak of God, give your last pennies to a neighbor? How do you live this life in today's world?

Hi Kara,

I didn't post that passage, Derevon did.

I'm not precisely sure what it means either.

***

It still seems to me that some of the folks who are believing and having faith and all that are doing it for their very own self...
for the good of their self.

I mean, if God said "believe in me, love me, have faith in me, but oh by the way you will go to Hell if you do this...but just have faith anyway okay?"

I wonder if the faithful would still do it?

I mean, are they doing all this just so they can get their selfish rear into heaven?

They aren't doing it to get me into heaven. They aren't having Faith just for Faith's sake. They aren't having Faith, and then in return expecting to go to hell.

They expect that their very self will get to go to heaven.

See, I don't see anything wrong with that, really.

I just wish they could be a little more honest about it.

You know, they say "live for others, forget about yourself, etc."

But I think all the while in the background, these "selfless" folks are sort of thinking they will get their "reward" for all their selflessness when they go to heaven.

So are they really being selfless?

I do not really think so. They will gain the biggest reward of all: eternal heaven!

What bigger payoff is there than that?

I wish some could admit instead of being so self-righteous about it. You know something to the effect of: "Yes, I Believe, I have Faith, and yes part of the reason is I really want to go to Heaven and so it is a bit out of selfish self interest that I am doing this. If I was asked to have faith in God and in return thought I would just be in purgatory or Hell after this life...I don't know...I'd have to examine if I still want to do all this."

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To barter one life ,for a better next life, seems to this pragmatist, contractual schizophrenia. Should'nt there be a clause or provision of debenture in regard to subsequent lives .... or do we start from scratch again? How many fulfilled contracts are required for full autonomy .... or is freedom at best ... a human concept? A lifetime of practicing faith, worship and obedience rewarded with countless lifetimes of the same .... I'm still thinking ...

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Kara and Extra medium,

"To live for God and for one's neighbour" in the purest sense means to live a life of self-denial where one always places the will of God and of one's neighbour above one's own. One attempts to efface all that is "self", and by doing this one allows God to shape one in the likeness of His divine image. Of course, no human being could possibly live such a perfect life, but it's nonetheless what we should strive towards.

To live for oneself and for the world, on the other hand, means that you place yourself, and various worldly goals in focus. Such a life doesn't lead towards God.

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Derevon wrote:

Kara and Extra medium,

"To live for God and for one's neighbour" in the purest sense means to live a life of self-denial where one always places the will of God and of one's neighbour above one's own. One attempts to efface all that is "self", and by doing this one allows God to shape one in the likeness of His divine image. Of course, no human being could possibly live such a perfect life, but it's nonetheless what we should strive towards.

To live for oneself and for the world, on the other hand, means that you place yourself, and various worldly goals in focus. Such a life doesn't lead towards God.

That would require either a judgement on the worthiness of the neighbor or blind faith would it not? ... charlatans abound.

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extra medium wrote:

It still seems to me that some of the folks who are believing and having faith and all that are doing it for their very own self...
for the good of their self. I mean, if God said "believe in me, love me, have faith in me, but oh by the way you will go to Hell if you do this...but just have faith anyway okay?" I wonder if the faithful would still do it? I mean, are they doing all this just so they can get their selfish rear into heaven?

I can't answer for others, but it's certainly not that way to me. Of course I have the hope of salvation, but in the end what motivates me is to do the will of our Heavenly Father, because I have felt His Holiness and Love through the Holy Spirit, and when one does that, one realises that the very purpose of one's existence is to love God as much as one possibly can. God's love for every single one of His children is so incomprehensibly enormously fathomlessly great that it's totally impossible for a human being to experience more than a tiny fraction of it. When one feels this remarkable Love, one strongly desires to return it to God by doing His will, because one knows His will is perfect, eternal and True. Simply put, one lives for God out of love.

There are doubtlessly those who try to refrain from sinning out of fear of hell. Doing this is of course better than not refraining from it at all, but refraining from it because one does not want to offend God who is so full of love is a much better reason.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

Derevon wrote:
Kara and Extra medium,

"To live for God and for one's neighbour" in the purest sense means to live a life of self-denial where one always places the will of God and of one's neighbour above one's own. One attempts to efface all that is "self", and by doing this one allows God to shape one in the likeness of His divine image. Of course, no human being could possibly live such a perfect life, but it's nonetheless what we should strive towards.

To live for oneself and for the world, on the other hand, means that you place yourself, and various worldly goals in focus. Such a life doesn't lead towards God.

That would require either a judgement on the worthiness of the neighbor or blind faith would it not? ... charlatans abound.

Of course one has to give people the benefit of a doubt. Motive is everything.

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Yes that is true. One of the questions that I have not been able to satisfy is 'what would God's motive be'. Of what need would a God or Devil have for human worship?

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How Powerful is Satan?

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