The bright side of slavery

extra medium wrote:

Can you see the difference between #1 & #2 above?

And the troubling part seems to be that you sort of say: "Since slavery benefitted the US economy, and it may have had a few isolated benefits for a few slaves somewhere among the thousands that were kidnapped, tortured and killed, its not so bad.

Yea i see the difference i just thought i remembered my teacher once saying that life in Africa was terrible during the slave trade and in some circumstances you could say being a slave in the US brought new opportunities...mainly in the north though. I should have questioned her on it so i could have some facts. But i think its plain to see that leaders of African countries were courrupt and sold their people for money

0 Replies

setanta, he meant free labor in the sense of free cost. of course, there's no such thing, any more than a free lunch. slaves must be fed, purchased, overseen, guarded, etc. furthermore, devoting resources to cash crops means either having to import food crops, or severely limiting the population you can support, which in turn hampers any drive toward industrialization. it was no accident that the south shipped its cotton to the north, because only the north had the factories and trained labor to convert cotton fiber into fabric.

0 Replies

A statement of the process of natural selection would be "the survival of the fittest." However, that statement applies to species over generations, not individuals in the here and now. Those who survive, however they survive, are by definition fit.

The slim, very slim, advantage that Europeans enjoyed when first they sought to conquer the Americas, and later the Indian subcontinent and Africa arose from an entire complex of technological and economic and societal innovations which no one member of any group of European colonist had mastered entirely within him- or herself. A ship's navigator cannot design and build a clock. Clock makers do not accompany voyages of exploration. But once the art of clock making advanced sufficiently, that navigator could use a well-built clock to find out far west he was of Greenwich, England to within a safe degree of accuracy.

Europeans did not invent clocks; they did not invent movable type; they did not invent gunpowder; they did not invent the astrolabe--the earliest of navigational instruments--the list of things which the Europeans did not invent is a very long one indeed. And virtually everything on that list was exploited by Europeans consistenly and perspicaciously to give them that slight advantage which eventually, after centuries and millions of deaths, allowed them to conquer "new worlds." There was and is no inherent superiority in individuals of European descent (which includes the populations of North and South America). The differences were entirely societal, they were only slight, and they were as successful as history proves them as much by accident as they were by intent.

Perhaps i've lost you now, it doesn't matter much. How things human develop over centuries is something you can spend your life attempting to learn, and still come up short.

0 Replies

Discreet wrote:

extra medium wrote:

Can you see the difference between #1 & #2 above?

And the troubling part seems to be that you sort of say: "Since slavery benefitted the US economy, and it may have had a few isolated benefits for a few slaves somewhere among the thousands that were kidnapped, tortured and killed, its not so bad.

Yea i see the difference i just thought i remembered my teacher once saying that life in Africa was terrible during the slave trade and in some circumstances you could say being a slave in the US brought new opportunities...mainly in the north though. I should have questioned her on it so i could have some facts. But i think its plain to see that leaders of African countries were courrupt and sold their people for money

Thats all well and good but dam it almost sounds as if this teacher is selectively teaching, or you are selectively listening, or something.
Is she a confederate sympathizer or something?

What part of the nation is this you are learning all this in?

I've studied a lot on this subject, and here is what I believe: Lets pick a number, say 1 million slaves. Yes if some slave-owner sympathizers look far and wide, they might be able to find a few hundred or few thousand cases out of that million where the slaves might have been a bit better off in some very specific little ways (and that is debatable).

BUT: THE OTHER 999,000 SLAVES WERE RAPED, TORTURED, MURDERED, AND SUBJECTED TO CRAP BEYOND BELIEF, STUFF SO BAD THEY WILL NOT EVEN PUT IT IN YOUR HISTORY BOOKS. (Think things like cutting off limbs, brothers being forced to mate with sisters, children ripped away from their parents forever, parents killed while children watch, etc etc). Well if they were lucky all they had to do is be a slave the rest of their life. Yeah, not so bad. Why don't you try it?

0 Replies

A) could you cite your source on that 999,000 slaves out of 1 million being raped murdered etd
B)I live in VA, nothern VA though so we are a small liberal pocket surround by conservatives

0 Replies

I think there is a tone of hostility in your replies, EM, whether you intend it or not, which Discreet does not deserve.

0 Replies

I think it is to broad to say that European nations gained so much control by stealing technology to get the upper edge. For example during world war II the british came up with radar which became a huge factor in why they were able to resist the daily bombings of the Luwftwaffer.

Oh btw does anyone know or has any heard about a situation in which England knew a certain city was goign to be bombed but they didn't warn the citizens because they didn't wanna let the germans know we could crack their codes. I wanted to do an essay on this but could rem the cities name

0 Replies

I did not say that the Europeans "stole" technology. Both the English and the Germans had radio wave echo location equipment at the beginning of the Second World War.

Coventry.

0 Replies

The European superiority over the indigenous cultures of the Americas consisted of "Guns, Germs and Steel" (which is also the title ofa Pulitzer Prize-winning book by Jared Diamond, which I can't recommend highly enough).

0 Replies

Discreet wrote:

Could i argue that because we were a better society we were able to conquer the indians and use africans and slaves.

Just wanna hear your thoughts though anyone every thought about social darwinism>

A better society?

Are you kidding me?

Okay, here we go again. The Germans conquered many surrounding nations. Were they a better society. Attila the Hun conquered many peoples and tortured & killed thousands along the way. Was his a better society? The Apache Indians were known to be among the most violent of tribes, and they dominated (and scalped) many nearby tribes. Were they a better tribe?

Where do get this idea that whatever is stronger or more violent or more on the attack, where do you get this idea that this is "better?" If anything, it is worse.

Most scientists believe cockroaches will probably be around after humans have died off. Are cockroaches better than us?

0 Replies

Yeah im sorry if i am offending people just tell me to stop and ill shutup. I obviously don't know everything and obviously learned i shouldn't have made a obsurd statement of an idea in my head because history is about facts and i didn't research. I just brought this topic up for the sake of discussion and to see other peoples arguments. Because if someone had told me that life in africa was terrible and slavery was just a notch better i could believe that. But hearing your arguments shows me that that theory is wrong and its quicker for me to get it from you then spend my time trying to figure it out on my own and in the dark. Through these forums i can be linked to good sources. Maybe im totally off base in my statement or maybe some of what i say is true i just wanted to test other peoples knowledge and see how had a logical and factual argument against my statement......NO OFFENSE INTENDED just provoking thoughts.

0 Replies

Quote:

I think that this is a bad theory though because i think that is what the nazis used to justify the killing of the jews....

Yeah i realized that germans used this theory after quickly looking my idea up in google....lol scratch it because someone is stronger does not mean that they are benefiting society i wasnt thinking. good call em

0 Replies

Discreet wrote:

A) could you cite your source on that 999,000 slaves out of 1 million being raped murdered etd

That was not an actual number. I was trying to illustrate to you that while there may indeed have been a very few slaves that were somehow supposedly better off, the vast majority were not.

And why should I cite anything?

I still haven't seen any of your cites for how slavery benefitted the slaves and their native nations.

Been waiting some time on that. You have some nerve asking for cites after you ignore request for same.

0 Replies

I for one am not telling you to shup up. If you don't ask questions, you have no hope at learning things. If you don't make mistakes, you can't learn to avoid them.

I for one take no offense at your questions. And i hope you will continue to ask them, and seek answers for them. I also hope you know that neither I, nor any other single person can answer all your questions, or has a special lock on the truth. Get all the information you can, learn how to distinguish what is reliable information from what is somebody's crap rant, and then make up your own mind.

0 Replies

Setanta wrote:

I think there is a tone of hostility in your replies, EM, whether you intend it or not, which Discreet does not deserve.

Sorry to everyone, I did not mean to be hostile.

I meant to debate my case strongly.

I felt that some basic facts of slavery were being tiptoed around.

And: When someone is very making bold (hostile?) statements like slavery helped the slaves and whatever country conquers another country must be better, I believe they should be ready to back it up.

I thought we are here to debate?

0 Replies

Don't feel bad, Disc. You've brought out some top guns, e.g. Setanta and others, to counter your argument. If you've approached this debate with an open mind and have learned something from it, that is all to the good. Never stop questioning "generally accepted" beliefs. Never. That is the only sure road to knowledge and understanding.

0 Replies

extra medium wrote:

Discreet wrote:
A) could you cite your source on that 999,000 slaves out of 1 million being raped murdered etd

That was not an actual number. I was trying to illustrate to you that while there may indeed have been a very few slaves that were somehow supposedly better off, the vast majority were not.

And why should I cite anything?

I still haven't seen any of your cites for how slavery benefitted the slaves and their native nations.

Been waiting some time on that. You have some nerve asking for cites after you ignore request for same.

Ive listed a few cites earlier....They may have sucked one or two i found to be interesting though if your too lazy to search the thread heres a few

http://law.gsu.edu/federalist/Horowitz.htm

http://mondediplo.com/1998/04/02africa

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/01/0131_030203_jubilee2.html

http://www.eh.net/encyclopedia/?article=wahl.slavery.us

0 Replies

Discreet wrote:

Yeah im sorry if i am offending people just tell me to stop and ill shutup. I obviously don't know everything and obviously learned i shouldn't have made a obsurd statement of an idea in my head because history is about facts and i didn't research. I just brought this topic up for the sake of discussion and to see other peoples arguments. Because if someone had told me that life in africa was terrible and slavery was just a notch better i could believe that. But hearing your arguments shows me that that theory is wrong and its quicker for me to get it from you then spend my time trying to figure it out on my own and in the dark. Through these forums i can be linked to good sources. Maybe im totally off base in my statement or maybe some of what i say is true i just wanted to test other peoples knowledge and see how had a logical and factual argument against my statement......NO OFFENSE INTENDED just provoking thoughts.

Discreet,

Not at all. Please do not asking these questions.

You bring up some very intriguing points.

And I do enjoy your posts.

You make me think.

But by the same token, this is DEBATE & PHILOSOPHY, right?

If I say something, and you feel differently and you can prove me wrong on it, I hope you will.

That is what I'm here for too, to learn.

For example:

In your post, you claimed that slavery helped the US economy.

Initially, I didn't want to believe that really, but after researching it, paging through my memory, etc., I (begrudingly) had to admit you (might) have a case on this.

You made me think about this.

And even if we disagree, that is cool.

Some of the people I love & respect the most in my life, I disagree with at times.

***

I didn't mean to come off mean. I was just trying to very actively debate the ideas I believed in.

As were you.

Onward!

0 Replies

Setanta wrote:

I think there is a tone of hostility in your replies, EM, whether you intend it or not, which Discreet does not deserve.

Curious: Where did you note the hostility?

0 Replies

NO its cool heres something you may want to dwell on I mentioned it in another thread. I am not claiming to be an intectual but i think questioning common beliefs is good. And it is not good to get too attached to an idea that you cannot be open about it and only argue because you are emotionally attached.

"An intellectual is someone whos mind watches itself" (Camus) .Meaning they are critical about what they are learning and skeptical avoiding developing too much emotional attachment to beliefs misleading them so that when something is discovered that goes against what they think they reject it and don't listen to the other side. They deliberate on their reasoning in order to discover flaws or errors which would undermine the facts of their beliefs.

0 Replies

The bright side of slavery

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know