The bright side of slavery

yitwail wrote:

and B D, thanks for finishing my thought; i clicked on the reply button too soon.

I didn't mean to finish it...just add. Embarrassed

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Bella Dea wrote:

yitwail wrote:

No, nobody gave African-Americans freedom; it was restored to them, grudgingly, about a century after they were supposedly emancipated. African-American fought for their rights at lunch counters, voting booths, and

Fought and died and were arrested and were lynched and were spit at and were harassed...oh the list of atrocities could just go on.

I gotta say I agree with you....giving someone something doesn't usually entail beating them almost to death before giving it to them.

All the Union militia died for no purpose i guess if freedom was restored to them....It seems african americans did alll the work no white americans ever helped Rolling Eyes

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fredjones wrote:

Ok fine, I'll give my pov...

So in a purely amoral sense, the subjugation of a people and the resulting selection of healthier, stronger individuals could be beneficial to those that survived. But I don't think many people believe that slavery is an amoral act.

Ludicrous argument. If you provide proof that slavery produced a healthier, stronger individual than now exists in Africa then you might have a basis for it.

No such proof exists so it fails under its own assumption.

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*Ignore*
Double Post

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Quote:

(The preceding has been a personal opinion sponsored by the Darwinists For Interdependent Consumption and Leverage

I'm sure many in Darwin are independently consuming beverages as we speak.

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Discreet wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
yitwail wrote:

No, nobody gave African-Americans freedom; it was restored to them, grudgingly, about a century after they were supposedly emancipated. African-American fought for their rights at lunch counters, voting booths, and

Fought and died and were arrested and were lynched and were spit at and were harassed...oh the list of atrocities could just go on.

I gotta say I agree with you....giving someone something doesn't usually entail beating them almost to death before giving it to them.

All the Union militia died for no purpose i guess if African American freedom; was restored to them....It seems african americans did alll the work no white americans ever helped

What? I did not make any such statement as that.

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Alright well obviously im outnumbered here, its getting out of hand.

My simple thought was whether or not you could argue that without slavery:
A)The united states would have never developed?
B)African Americans would not have the civil liberties they have today in the US
C)Whether or not anyone can find any proof saying that life in AFrica was better then being a slave. I was taught that Africa was a very corrupt and terrible place during the slave trade and living conditions were just as bad...

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What's the eye-rolling have to do with your argument, discreet?

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A.) Arguable. If that's all you're arguing, could be interesting. But you gotta get B and C in there....

B) You mean like how Irish-Americans don't have civil liberties? Or Franco-Americans? Or Japanese-Americans? Why do they have to be enslaved first to have civil liberties now?

C) It's on you to provide proof that it WAS such a corrupt and terrible place. Not just a little corrupt and terrible, mind you, corrupt and terrible enough that it would be as bad or worse than being enslaved. Parados has laid out what specific questions you can answer there quite well.

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Discreet wrote:

Alright well obviously im outnumbered here, its getting out of hand.

My simple thought was whether or not you could argue that without slavery:
A)The united states would have never developed?
B)African Americans would not have the civil liberties they have today in the US
C)Whether or not anyone can find any proof saying that life in AFrica was better then being a slave. I was taught that Africa was a very corrupt and terrible place during the slave trade and living conditions were just as bad...

A. Slavery helped develop the US. That was not your statement.

B. There is no evidence to support this. If there had been no slavery there would have been no discrimination so blacks would have been equal. Your assumption is a false one.

C. Are you denying the very basis on which this country was founded? Patrick Henry said "Give me liberty or give me death". Someone has lied to you obviously.

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parados wrote:

fredjones wrote:
Ok fine, I'll give my pov...

So in a purely amoral sense, the subjugation of a people and the resulting selection of healthier, stronger individuals could be beneficial to those that survived. But I don't think many people believe that slavery is an amoral act.

Ludicrous argument. If you provide proof that slavery produced a healthier, stronger individual than now exists in Africa then you might have a basis for it.

No such proof exists so it fails under its own assumption.

I fudged my words a little because I assumed that you had a working knowledge of selection. No individual will be bigger or stronger, but the population would be. It is interesting to me that you managed to sidestep the real meat of my argument, which is that IF this were the case, in an amoral world it could considered beneficial.

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Because it seems by that reply that people think the only reason african americans got their rights was because they earned it. America was split in half over slavery and a war was a result. Many americans died because they felt blacks should not be enslaved.

I guess everyone thinks slavery was bad and nothing good came from it. And no one benefited from it. So we shoud all give the blacks of today special treatment feeling attrition for the acts our ancestors did.

I think slavery had many wrong things about it but we see much more of the atrocities in it because we live in a country where every one is equal. So as easy as it is to judge it and say how terrible it is i just wanted to see if anyone could stretch their thinking and find evidence of how slavery benefited the US i guess i should have researched before bringing the topic up....So i would have facts to support my ideas. For thats just all they were just thoughts

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OK,

A) Of course the US would have developed without slavery. Remember that many states outlawed slavery and did just fine. It was the industrial revolution, lland and resources that made the US develop so quickly.

The US would not have developed without the decimation of the Native American population... but that is another story.

B) Of course they would. Asian Americans have civil liberties here in the US they were never slaves here. Italian Americans didn't come as slaves they have civil liberties.

C) I thought you always questioned what you were taught? (You were taught wrong)

Look at the facts about slavery, and then use your mind. Under what circumstances would you prefer to be a slave (with hard work, beatings, rape and all that stuff)?

Also consider the fact that Africa is a Continent? At the time, there were terrible places in Africa as a result of the Conquest by European powers. But many places in this vast Continent were quite pleasant places to live.

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Quote:

without slavery:
A)The united states would have never developed?

This is an interesting statement. If you go read REAL HISTORY. the founders did discuss this. There was an ongoing discussion in the mid 1700s, Franklin was part of it, about whether slavery was actually a hindrance to American colony development. The main argument was that slavery made the English colonists lazy and held down the number of children they produced. A society without slaves creates more progeny since they need the children to work the land which leads to expansion when the children grow up and go to find land of their own.

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Quote:

Alright well obviously im outnumbered here, its getting out of hand.

My simple thought was whether or not you could argue that without slavery:
A)The united states would have never developed?

A1) What evidence is there that this is the case?
A2) Given what the United States did for the first century of its existence, is it a good thing that the United States did develop?

Quote:

B)African Americans would not have the civil liberties they have today in the US

B1) So, if a people is not enslaved, they will enjoy fewer civil liberties? Logically, this is a preposterous statement.

Quote:

C)Whether or not anyone can find any proof saying that life in AFrica was better then being a slave. I was taught that Africa was a very corrupt and terrible place during the slave trade and living conditions were just as bad...

It's your contention that life as a slave in America (to say nothing of death as a slave) was better than life in Africa. It is up to you to present evidence to support this, not to us to present evidence to discount it. Better yet, look for evidence to discount your own ideas.

That said, Africa may well have been a corrupt and terrible place. Given the treatment you've admitted of native Americans at the hands of European arrivals, I think I'd posit that this, too, was a corrupt and terrible place.

And even if the rest of what you say was true, you'd still have to fall back on a moral/philosophical argument that it is better to have one's material needs met and not be free than to suffer a lack of material goods and have autonomy. Not a very tenable position.

Also, if you want to be a thinker, it's a good idea to address specific questions directed at you by your audience, rather than just throw more flawed arguments at them. Volume of ideas is no indicator of quality of ideas. Nor, for that matter, is novelty...

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Discreet wrote:

A)The united states would have never developed?

No, because there were plenty of immigrants who did low-paid work on a voluntary basis. Slavery wasn't necessary to make this happen.

Discreet wrote:

B)African Americans would not have the civil liberties they have today in the US

That depends on what the alternative is. If the alternative is no immigration from Africa at all, the answer is yes, because most African nations today have a much worse human rights records than the USA. If the alternative is voluntary 18th and 19th century immigration from Africa, the answer is no, because it would make no difference to the rights of blacks today. Hence, the answer to your question can establish a case for black immigration, but not for slavery.

Discreet wrote:

C)Whether or not anyone can find any proof saying that life in AFrica was better then being a slave.

I don't know about "proof", but as I mentioned in my earlier post, there was a large amount of black emigration to Liberia in the 19th century, a country specifically incorporated for the purpose of providing a home for American slaves. This strikes me as pretty strong evidence that many black slaves thought the conditions in Africa more attractive than in America. Enough so to be worth a dangerous trip to a far-away, unknown country.

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Why do people thinking living conditions in Africa during the 17 and 1800's were paradise. Maybe they have just gone the opposite way of progressing which would explain the state most of the countries in Africa are in. Maybe i never read the part in history books where it tells everyone that Africa was a thriving continent

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"Paradise" and "better than slavery" are very, very different concepts, Discreet. Do YOU have any proof that it was worse than slavery?

Quote:

Because it seems by that reply that people think the only reason african americans got their rights was because they earned it. America was split in half over slavery and a war was a result. Many americans died because they felt blacks should not be enslaved.

Why do Chinese-Americans have any rights in today's society?

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Quote:

And even if the rest of what you say was true, you'd still have to fall back on a moral/philosophical argument that it is better to have one's material needs met and not be free than to suffer a lack of material goods and have autonomy. Not a very tenable position.

Yes, Patrick Henry did say this with more concision. Smile

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Discreet I hope you appreciate this.

You have a lot of very intelligent people spending a fair amount of time to help with your education.

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The bright side of slavery

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