Merry Andrew wrote:The problem with Discreet's argument is that he seems willing to use these results of the African-American contribution as a justification for the institution of chattel slavery, a position which is indefensible. Instead of censuring Discreet, I think we should be guiding him into an understanding that the "end" never justifies 'the means." Would Dr. Mengele's loathsome experiments on death-camp inmates be justifyable and forgiveable if they had led to a cure for cancers? I don't think so.
nice post about contributions of African-Americans to this country. one thing i'd like to add is that they served with distinction in the civil war & every war hence that the US fought, not to mention Crispus Attucks, the runaway slave, who might be considered the first casualty of the war for independence.
what i find especially distateful about the attempt to justify the means in this case is that the ends--supposedly better social conditions for African-Americans, compared to current inhabitants of Africa--were unintended. the intended end of slavery was profit to the slaveowner, not improved living conditions for slaves.
Quote:(BTW doesnt chattel mean slave, i thoughts that what it meant i don't get what you mean by chattel slavery)
As opposed to being indentured, perhaps (just guessing here). A lot of the slavery that found within the African continent was the result of unpaid debts. If you were in debt to somebody, you could repay that debt by a prescribed period of servitude. Incidentally, your kid might be able to (or have to, if, say, you died) serve in your place.
welll in some cases being a servant isn't such a bad thing:
DOES GOD SUPPORT SLAVERY?
Christianity for example God commands us to be his servant
Ye shall walk after Jehovah your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. (Deut. 13:4)
Gen.24:35-36
And the LORD hath blessed my master [Abraham] greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses. And Sarah my master's wife bare a son to my master when she was old: and unto him hath he given all that he hath.
Eph.6:5
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
Col.3:22
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.
Col.3:22
Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.
1 Pet.2:18
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
It seems the bible gives directions on both how to be a good slave and a good master. So if southern plantation owners hadn't beaten/mistreated their servants/slaves would slavery be viewed as such a bad thing???
The Bible is not a good source on what is good or bad, unless genocide is a good thing.
I always believed that killing women and children was a bad thing.
The Bible says many things. For instance,
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
that's quite different from sitting around on your porch, sipping a cold drink, while watching your slaves working in the fields, cooking your food, and raising your children.
Discreet wrote:well said merry andrew. I guess we can turn this thread into exploring the roots or benefits of slavery in todays modern society.
(BTW doesnt chattel mean slave, i thoughts that what it meant i don't get what you mean by chattel slavery)
The main definition of 'chattel' is 'a moveable piece of personal property' (Webster's II New Riverside Dictionary). In non-slavery terms, it is often used to cover moveable herds of cattle. In fact, 'cattle' and 'chattel' have the same root. There are other types of slavery. For example, a personal servant (slave) is not considered chattel, even though he/she is obligated to move at the whim at his/her master/mistress.
yitwail wrote:The Bible says many things. For instance,
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
that's quite different from sitting around on your porch, sipping a cold drink, while watching your slaves working in the fields, cooking your food, and raising your children.
Only cause you are stereotyping slavery into what you think it was. You have to rem that history could be written in opinion form.
What if the history books said "Wealthy plantation owners rested on their heavenly white porches watching their wealths and the wealths of the nation multiply as their trusty servants sweat glistened in the sun each drop of sweat bringing a new harvest."
Don't let words change your impression
Discreet wrote:What if the history books said "Wealthy plantation owners rested on their heavenly white porches watching their wealths and the wealths of the nation multiply as their trusty servants sweat glistened in the sun each drop of sweat bringing a new harvest."
Don't let words change your impression
not even if the words are true? where's your source for the claim that slavery made the nation wealthy? Brazil didn't abolish slavery until 1888. why isn't it wealthier than the US? Russia was the last European country to end slavery; why isn't it the wealthiest country in Europe?
Brazil is very rich it is also just very corrupt and hopefully you know why russia is poor. The war exhausted alot of their money/resources
Heres some things on brazil
http://www.summitreports.com/brazil/introduction.htm
http://www.latinbusinesschronicle.com/statistics/gdp/ranking.htm
here's something else on Brazil:
95th in the world in per capita GDP
that's below the average for the entire world, not only below such Latin American countries as Argentina, Chile, Costa Rica, Mexico, and Uruguay, but also below Russia, which you admitted is poor, and tied with Bulgaria, which i don't think is often described as a rich country.
Watching "Assassination of Richard Nixon" there was a few minutes ago a quote on slavery.
Slavery never really ended in this country. They just gave it another name. Employee.
Samuel Bicke
so we spent all this time arguing about something that never happened. at least i won't have to keep this up.
Re: The bright side of slavery
Discreet
In this question, as in many other moral questions, I think you forgot the essential:
Would you like to be a slave, even if slavery was good to the country?
But let me tell this: If you answer "no", then you are a racist.Why? Because you think there is a bright side of slavery, but for the others. Specially if they have the "wrong" pigmentation of skin.
What if being a slave meant a better life than what you had?
I still wouldn't choose slavery and I would especially resent if someone else were making this decision for me.
New Hampshire's motto is "Live free or die."
Perhaps this might explain to you why no one would consider slavery to have bettered their condition. I have not conributed to this thread before because it is so iditotic.
Your entire claptrap is predicated upon a premise that those enslaved in West Africa were better off in the state of slavery than while living in their home communities. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Anyone who fed you that nonsense was promoting a racist view, whether or not your personally are racist.
anybody with common sense or empathy would realize that a human being cannot be better off when his or her children can be taken away and sold at any moment.
Like sentana, I stopped adding to this thread because it became clear that this kid is yanking chains. He's not so stupid to actually believe that being enslaved is better than being free. He's just likes to start ****. He said that himself a few pages back. But reading his last post about slavery offering more than freedom made me think that perhaps discreet is like many young people out here today who are perfectly willing to give up their rights as adults and continue to live at home with mom and dad as long as they continue to pay the bills. Thinking that way, it's easier to be a slave and not have to be responsible for your food, your clothing, acquiring and maintaining a home, etc. than it is to be free and responsible for yourself and your own well-being.
