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Alternative Pledge of Allegiance idea

 
 
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2019 06:37 pm
If people aren't comfortable with pledging allegiance, for whatever reason, should they be able to affirm their honor for the principles of liberty and justice represented by the flag, the republic for which it stands, etc.? This would help people establish that they are not against the principles and the republic, only that they don't want to pledge allegiance for whatever reason.

Maybe it should just be changed to, "I pledge to honor and respect the flag . . ." so everyone can still say it in unison, even if they have reasons not to "pledge allegiance," e.g. because it would put them in conflict with some other sovereign government they are required to honor by declining foreign allegiances.
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2019 07:23 pm
@livinglava,
Why not just drop the whole silly public pledge thing altogether. Forcing someone to pledge anything is ridiculous in any society that values liberty.

People should be free to pledge anything they want to the piece of fabric of their choosing. I don't think it should be part of any forced public ritual.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2019 07:26 pm
@maxdancona,
.... and fun fact. Do you know the guy who wrote the pledge of allegiance was a socialist?
0 Replies
 
Ponderer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2019 08:02 pm
It is all a matter of personal perspective, and luckily we live in a country in which we are free to express our perspective. Imagine mine. This past summer I watched as two young Army officers took a flag from my dad's casket and folded it. (WW-2 veteran; 357th Infantry, Normandy, Northern France) I stood and received the flag from an officer who looked me in the eyes and made me feel more pride in my father and more respect for that flag than ever before. I held it to my chest, arms crossed, two points up, one point down. I stood as seven wounded veterans in wheelchairs fired a twenty-one gun salute.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2019 08:28 pm
@Ponderer,
My son is in the US army. During boot camp I became close to the other military families... a group of good patriotic Christians. We leaned on each other during this time. I like this community even though I had almost nothing in common with them outside of love for our children.

At my son's graduation, I proudly stood up for the National Anthem and the Pledge of Allegiance hand over heart for one of the few times of my life. But I was doing it first to support and show my pride for my son, and second out of respect for my new community of military families.

It is contextual.

izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 02:21 am
Forcing citizens to pledge allegiance to anything reeks of Fascism. I live in a free country where nobody would try to force that **** on us.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 08:21 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I live in a free country where nobody would try to force that **** on us.


How cute Wink.

Don't you guys in bloody England still have a mandated "act of Christian worship" in schools... at least legally? I personally think the defamation laws in the UK are ridiculously backwards... in England a company is a person with legal rights.

God save the Queen.
izzythepush
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 12:35 pm
@maxdancona,
We're not forced to swear allegiance to anyone or anything. Britain is one of least religious countries in the World. We don't have religious idiots stopping our schools from teaching evolution.

As usual you're clutching at straws and talking out of your arse.

God Save the Queen indeed.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 01:06 pm
@izzythepush,
In America, McDonalds doesn't sue people for saying their hamburgers suck.

British civil liberties are are crooked and spotty as British teeth.

izzythepush
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 01:37 pm
@maxdancona,
And now the nasty little bigot comes crashing to the surface. You always resort to that when you've lost the argument. You sure you didn't vote for Trump?

Like all bigots you're full of ****.

Quote:
According to University College London and Harvard University, Britons have no worse dental health than the Americans, and in fact, we have fewer missing teeth.


The study showed that the average number of missing teeth was significantly higher in the US – with the average person missing 7.31 teeth compared to 6.97 in Britain.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/12054216/Americans-do-not-have-better-teeth-than-the-British-study-concludes.html

Your legal system let murderer OJ Simpson walk free along with child rapist Michael Jackson. American justice isn't there, like your ******* teeth.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 01:45 pm
@livinglava,
Citizens should pledge allegiance to what America stands for.

If they have a problem with doing so, they are not good American citizens. They should also leave but of course, they won't because what America stands for won't force them to.

If someone has a problem with the "God" bit they can just say to themselves during their pledge: "Except for that bit." It's not as if the Pledge will be used against them later down the road.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 02:18 pm
@izzythepush,
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 02:20 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Citizens should pledge allegiance to what America stands for.

If they have a problem with doing so, they are not good American citizens.


Let's just say I disagree. And, I am more American than you are.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 05:06 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Forcing citizens to pledge allegiance to anything reeks of Fascism. I live in a free country where nobody would try to force that **** on us.

I used to think so too, but later I realized that is exactly why it is so good to have it say what it says, which is that we pledge allegiance not to the people or the government but to the "republic with liberty and justice for all."

In other words, it's explicitly an anti-fascist pledge to inoculate us against fascism using the kinds of propaganda tools that are typically used for fascism, i.e. flags and dogmas.

Still, I've been thinking lately that maybe it's not enough; like maybe there should also be a moment of silence for everyone who has failed to achieve liberty and justice because they are oppressed by or in submission to some liberty-flouting power network or liberty-perverting ideology.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 05:06 pm
@maxdancona,
I don't know how you define "American," (you're a person of the color red? Rolling Eyes ) but I am referring to American citizens.

A person made an American citizen yesterday might easily be a more worthy one than you.
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 06:03 pm
@livinglava,
Growing up, partially in NYC, I was often able to participate in a rather unique pledge. Instead of pledging an allegiance to a flag, me and the other students pledged our allegiance to a wall. (the president would be gleeful over this)

Many classrooms were without a flag, so, we just turned to where it was supposed to be and mumbled the words. (maybe the president would not be as gleeful now)

Since nobody is or can be forced into reciting the pledge (force would violate 1st amendment rights, as per 1943 court ru!ing in West Virginia Board of Education vs. Barnette) and I suspect it also violates the rights of atheists since 1954 when President Eisenhower added in "under God" .


But why submit ones self to pledging to anything? If a person has a set of beliefs, they know what they are and don't need to state them in a rather bizarre robotic way.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 06:18 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
You used the term "good American citizen". I assume that you used this term to signify someone who agrees with you. You then went on to suggest that people who don't agree with you "should probably leave".

I was pointing out that the true definition of a good American is someone who agrees with me. But I will let the rest of you stay anyway.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 06:26 pm
@maxdancona,
A good American citizen believes in the virtues of America

I've little idea whether or not that is someone like you...but I'm beginning to doubt it.

Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 06:30 pm
@maxdancona,
Code:...I proudly stood up for the National Anthem and Pledge...


That's a form of hypocrisy on your part maxdancona. A few posts back, you refer to the pledge as "silly" among other things. If you find it silly, then I suggest you hold your belief and stand in silence.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 06:38 pm
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:

Code:...I proudly stood up for the National Anthem and Pledge...


That's a form of hypocrisy on your part maxdancona. A few posts back, you refer to the pledge as "silly" among other things. If you find it silly, then I suggest you hold your belief and stand in silence.


Did you read the context? I thought I explained myself pretty well. I was standing for my son and for the families around me in spite of the fact that normally I find the ritual to be silly.

I wanted to show respect for my son, and I didn't want to upset the families in my community or distract from the ceremony. If that is hypocrisy, then I guess I am a hypocrite. I personally don't see any contradiction in my actions.
0 Replies
 
 

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