3
   

Alternative Pledge of Allegiance idea

 
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 06:41 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

A good American citizen believes in the virtues of America

I've little idea whether or not that is someone like you...but I'm beginning to doubt it.


What the hell does "believe in the virtues of America" mean? I can list a set of what I see to be the virtues of America and I believe in every one of them. My list is likely to be quite different than your list.

If you are saying that only one of us can be a good American, I am pretty sure it is me. At least I am not suggesting people who don't agree with me should leave.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 07:16 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

And now the nasty little bigot comes crashing to the surface. You always resort to that when you've lost the argument. You sure you didn't vote for Trump?

Like all bigots you're full of ****.

Quote:
According to University College London and Harvard University, Britons have no worse dental health than the Americans, and in fact, we have fewer missing teeth.


The study showed that the average number of missing teeth was significantly higher in the US – with the average person missing 7.31 teeth compared to 6.97 in Britain.


Your legal system let murderer OJ Simpson walk free along with child rapist Michael Jackson. American justice isn't there, like your ******* teeth.


Well OJ did walk free and there is little question that he did murder his ex wife and her friend however there was little evidence that MJ rape anyone or was a pedofile but was just a very odd person likely due to his up bring.

For one thing they did not find once child porn picture and all they did find is a few legal art books out of a library of a few thousand books that you could buy at any large bookstore along with normal amount of hetersexual adult porn
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 07:54 pm
@BillRM,
What has Izzy's knickers in a bunch is the idea of due process. When OJ and Michael Jackson were found not guilty by a jury of their peers, they weren't punished.

Of course England has their own version of due process (albeit somewhat watered down). I am sure we could find examples of people in England who weren't punished because the prosecution couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were guilty of the crimes they were believed to have committed. England is stuffy, backwards and full of themselves, but they aren't barbaric.

I didn't take Izzy's Anglo-supremacist bait because it isn't relevant to the thread.


0 Replies
 
Lady Lingiton
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 10:43 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_(United_Kingdom)
Real Music
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2019 11:25 pm
@livinglava,
As an American, I choose to cite the pledge of allegiance.
As an American, I choose to stand up for the National anthem.

I don't hold anything against anyone who chooses not to do so.
I don't think any less of anyone who chooses not to do so.
I don't consider anyone any less of an American for choosing not to do so.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2019 07:21 am
When I was in high school (in the 1980s) I decided not to stand for the pledge of allegiance. A part of this decision was based on a Quaker branch of my family that takes literally the Biblical command to not take oaths. A part of it was healthy adolescent rebellion and the same intellectual charm that you all love me for now.

I sat quietly during the pledge. The teacher objected. I held firm I was sent to the principal's office. There I told the principal it was my constitutional right to sit for the pledge. The principal was not amused. He told me I was suspended until I agreed to stand up for the flag and called my father.

My father was quite upset about being called into school... and he very strongly told the principal that yes, it was my constitutional right to not stand for the pledge. The principal sent me home. It took a couple of days for this to all work out, but the principal finally saw the light. He called me into his office and told me that I had to sit calmly and quietly for other students to recite the pledge. I was happy to do this (although, if you have ever seen a ****-eating grin on the face of an adolescent....).

I learned more from this experience, about being an American, then the rest of my four years in high school.

As an adult I have mellowed. I will stand when there is what I consider a good reason to stand (i.e. to support my son, or to show support for a social group). But on principle it is generally meaningless to me. When I taught high school Physics, I had no problem leading the pledge. It was part of my job and I did it well (although I did find it amusing that I was in that position).

I show my respect for the virtues of America by how I live, and how I support the rights of others, by voting, by political activism on issues I think are important. I agree with Real Music, if people find it meaningful to them to stand for the pledge of allegiance I respect their right to do so.
Linkat
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2019 08:06 am
@maxdancona,
I agree - the US by its basic principle is freedom. So you have the freedom not to stand or to stand. I personally think it is respectful to stand, however, given everyone is free and others have different viewpoints so be it if you decide to sit - as long as you are not impeding on my rights.

As far as an alternative - if it makes you feel better sure recite what you want or nothing at all.

I think people make more of things than is even necessary....When I was in high school there was a lot being brought up about religious rights and so forth. The pledge wasn't an issue - but the moment of silence was. Although I did not know one student who has an issue with the moment of silence - and honestly I didn't know what that moment meant in religious sense as it was a moment of silence not a moment of prayer.

In any case, the school decided to open it up so as to offend anyone. They decided that during that moment - a student could say they wanted to pray, sing whatever the heck they wanted and if others did not want to participate they could be silent or walk out into the hallway.

Well with a bunch of teens just imagine what happened - that 60 seconds ended up with most of the teens in the hallway screwing around. My earthy crunchy sweet heart of a homeroom teacher gave some suggestions of the use of the time - we did this thing where we all joined hands bent forward and as we went back up just went "Ahhhhh" - she even had us singing Kum ba yah - to this day I don't know how she got us all participating but we did.

Long story short after about a month --- the school decided to go back to the moment of silence-where you just sat there quiet for a minute.

In other words - the moment of silence isn't about prayer (it can be to you personally) but can be just a moment to reflect, daydream or even sleep.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2019 09:49 am
@Lady Lingiton,
That's if people want to join the armed forces. It's not the same as requiring an entire population to do something. Not in the slightest.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2019 04:10 pm
@Real Music,
Real Music wrote:

As an American, I choose to cite the pledge of allegiance.
As an American, I choose to stand up for the National anthem.

I don't hold anything against anyone who chooses not to do so.
I don't think any less of anyone who chooses not to do so.
I don't consider anyone any less of an American for choosing not to do so.

I don't either if it is just a free choice. But if you think about what it says, it is just an affirmation to honor liberty and justice for all. If people refuse to honor liberty and justice for all, they could be honoring some other, more sinister creed. So even if people have some other ideology that they believe in, or they are citizens of another nation, they should still honor "liberty and justice" for all, shouldn't they? Should people be allowed to flout those principles? What if they are for liberty and justice for some but not others? Should that be acceptable?
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2019 04:34 pm
@livinglava,
You are being silly again. Saying the pledge of allegiance doesn't prevent you from betraying the country.

Donald Trump is flouting the Constitution, and possibly selling out the United States to Russia. I don't think the pledge of allegiance is helping.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2019 05:32 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You are being silly again. Saying the pledge of allegiance doesn't prevent you from betraying the country.

Donald Trump is flouting the Constitution, and possibly selling out the United States to Russia. I don't think the pledge of allegiance is helping.

Should people have to intend to honor the principles of liberty and justice for all or not? Obviously no one is perfect and we can't go around jailing everyone who fails at liberty and justice for all, but shouldn't the intent to honor those principles at least be present and sincere?

Or maybe the refusal to pledge anything is protected by the 5th amendment (against self-incrimination) and/or the 1st (protecting freedom of religion). Could things like authoritarianism/fascism, hate, racism, etc. be protected as religion despite them undermining liberty and justice for all?
0 Replies
 
Ponderer
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2019 07:36 am
From CBS News-2/23/'19 - Subject: Flyover Tribute to Americans in Sheffield, England.
An American bomber with ten crewmen, badly-damaged by German fighters, searched for a place to make an emergency landing. Approaching a large clearing in a park in Sheffield where they could have landed, they saw children playing. The plane veered off course and crashed in the trees.
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2019 07:49 am
The pledge of allegiance is a bit of mind control that should not even be allowed.
Ponderer
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2019 07:55 am
@edgarblythe,
You could start a petition with that title and see how far it gets.
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2019 08:03 am
@Ponderer,
It's not important enough to fight a mindset like yours over a pledge, when we have real problems at hand.
Ponderer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2019 08:20 am
@edgarblythe,
By "mindset", I think you mean that Americans mindlessly salute a flag like the Germans saluted Hitler.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2019 09:22 am
@Ponderer,
That has nothing to do with the pledge of allegiance and everything to do with one man dedicating himself to their memory. A man who has never made the pledge of allegiance btw.

Quote:
Thousands have gathered in Sheffield to watch the US air force stage a flypast to commemorate 10 plane crew who died during the second world war.

People travelled from around the world for the flypast, including military veterans and family members of personnel killed on the B-17 Flying Fortress aircraft, known as Mi Amigo.

The event was watched by Tony Foulds, 82, who saw the Mi Amigo crash while he was playing with friends in the park as a child.

He later learned the aircraft had been attempting a crash landing in the park – the only green space for miles – but diverted course for fear of harming Foulds and his friends. Since 1944 he has quietly tended to a memorial for the US airmen.

On Friday, British and US military aircraft were dispatched from the UK’s largest US air force base in Suffolk, before flying over Endcliffe Park in Sheffield at 8.45am.

It was an important day for locals, who travelled to the public event on free buses and trams. One woman in the crowd turned to her daughter and said: “We’ve made history today, haven’t we?”

Foulds said he could not believe the flypast was finally happening. But he had something bigger on his mind. “I just can’t wait to see them planes go past now,” he said.

Foulds, who has Parkinson’s disease, became an internet sensation when the BBC journalist Dan Walker stumbled across him one morning while out walking his dog.

Walker began an online campaign to make Foulds’ dream come true: to properly commemorate the air crew who died, with a flypast.

“I was just touched by the fact that this 82-year-old had been tending this memorial quietly, diligently and without any desire for publicity or fame,” Walker said.

“He never once asked for anything for himself – his whole focus was always on honouring the men of Mi Amigo and that is why I felt I had to do all I could to make it happen.”

A message from Walker, who is in Kenya, was broadcast from a BBC stage to crowds holding placards reading: “Dan Walker is a legend!” Up to 10,000 people were estimated to have attended the event.

The Mi Amigo flew over the Sheffield park 75 years ago, having returned from a final mission in Denmark, where the Luftwaffe left it badly damaged. The 10 men on board were:

Pilot Lt John Kriegshauser, from Missouri
Co-pilot 2nd Lt Lyle Curtis, from Idaho
2nd Lt John Humphrey, a navigator from Illinois
Sgt Melchor Hernandez, a bombardier from California
Sgt Harry Estabrooks, an engineer and gunner from Kansas
Sgt Charles Tuttle, gunner from Kentucky
Sgt Robert Mayfield, radio operator from Illinois
Sgt Vito Ambrosio, gunner from New York
Sgt Malcolm Williams, gunner from Oklahoma
Sgt Maurice Robbins, gunner from Texas
Attendees in the crowd had come from as far as Russia and the US. One, Terry Martin, had travelled from Bristol to give artwork of the memorial to Foulds, which he had painted after seeing him on TV.

Stephen Clark, 47, a war veteran, said he was taken aback by Foulds’ dedication, and felt compelled to come: “I am here today because of what one man has done to bring a memorial back to life. The next step should be some form of award for him – he’s done a cracking job.”

US Col Lee Wingfield said flypasts required a lot of work, and it was a testament to Foulds’ dedication that it had been put together on this rare occasion. “These crews have to train to be ready. We couldn’t do this every day. But it is amazing we could memorialise Tony’s service … and all of the men and women who gave their lives.”

Foulds stood and waved as the aircraft set off. He announced to the crowds that, when he died, he wanted his ashes to be scattered alongside the memorial – much to the surprise of his family.

His children and great grandchildren said they were bemused at his newfound celebrity and were also proud of his hard work: “It doesn’t seem real at all,” said his daughter, Tracey Bridges. “We had heard this story probably every day – he wouldn’t stop banging on about it. But it is great to see that others have been so touched by it.”


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/22/man-who-tended-mi-amigo-memorial-for-75-years-watches-flypast-wwii-us-pilots
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2019 09:33 am
@edgarblythe,
Bang on, people shouldn't have to publicly demonstrate loyalty to the country of their birth. It's one thing immigrants but for everyone else it's an insult.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2019 09:42 am
@Ponderer,
It allows those in power to declare ideas as being un-American and disloyal. Look at McCarthyism and all the innocent people blacklisted for having left of centre ideas just because those in power deemed it so.

Do you honestly think those American |Socialists weren't loyal to America, because there's nothing to suggest that.
0 Replies
 
Ponderer
 
  3  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2019 09:54 am
@izzythepush,
That was supposed to possibly address the way this thread somehow turned into some England vs. America nonsense. And no one in America has to publicly show any loyalty to the country or the flag.
 

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