Alternative Pledge of Allegiance idea

@Ponderer,

Max has to wrap himself in the American flag for anyone to take him seriously. I know there's lots of good people in America, they're not all like him.

Ponderer wrote:

And no one in America has to publicly show any loyalty to the country or the flag.

If that were the case Colin Kaepernick wouldn't be the only American footballer people can name outside of the US. Honestly, I don't know the names of any others. (I only found out that the knicks played basketball the other day, I always thought they played baseball.)

Quote:

Every morning at the beginning of class, starting in Kindergarten until you graduate 12th grade, we require students to stand up, place their right hand on their heart, and make a pledge they don't understand.

I remember spending maybe an hour every day practicing the correct way to stand, the correct hand, the correct word pronunciation, and their meanings in elementary school. We kept doing it over and over til everyone got it right for the day. Then did it again the next day. Maybe they were so strict about it because I lived on an Air Force base. I don't know how it is for little kids in public school.

By the time I got to high school (public), kids really weren't in to the whole idea. People constantly received detention for refusing to do it. Eventually they told us we at least had to stand (while the whole school recited it in unison as led by the loudspeakers in every classroom) but didn't have to say it or anything.

Now you know why Americans have such a deep sense of nationalism and patriotism. It's been drilled in our heads our whole lives.

https://www.quora.com/Do-all-American-children-recite-the-Pledge-of-Allegiance-daily-at-school

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

The pledge of allegiance is a bit of mind control that should not even be allowed.

Shouldn't liberty and justice for all be honored? If people freely support liberty and justice for some but not others, should that be allowed? What if they support authoritarian control for all or some? Should that be allowed?

For liberty to function, it has to be embraced at the individual level. Otherwise you would have authoritarian, centralized top-down control.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

...the principal finally saw the light.

I'm fairly certain that the only light the principal actually observed was the same that was in the office prior to your actions. It's much more plausible that a threat of suspension/demotion/termination brought about your return to the classroom. It's equally possible that they had been through this before and found many students (not all), merely acquiesced.

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@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:

The pledge of allegiance is a bit of mind control that should not even be allowed.

Shouldn't liberty and justice for all be honored? If people freely support liberty and justice for some but not others, should that be allowed? What if they support authoritarian control for all or some? Should that be allowed?

For liberty to function, it has to be embraced at the individual level.
Otherwise you would have authoritarian, centralized top-down control.

How do you equate being forced to recite pledges as honoring anything? It's just somebody saying, echo what I want you to think or else. How about coming up with a positive message that all have the option to decline as they choose? Then we are all moving ahead without coercion.

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

livinglava wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:

The pledge of allegiance is a bit of mind control that should not even be allowed.

Shouldn't liberty and justice for all be honored? If people freely support liberty and justice for some but not others, should that be allowed? What if they support authoritarian control for all or some? Should that be allowed?

For liberty to function, it has to be embraced at the individual level.
Otherwise you would have authoritarian, centralized top-down control.

How do you equate being forced to recite pledges as honoring anything? It's just somebody saying, echo what I want you to think or else. How about coming up with a positive message that all have the option to decline as they choose? Then we are all moving ahead without coercion.

Of course if you could come up with some other way to pledge to honor the principle of liberty and justice for all, that would be ok. The problem is when people are rejecting liberty and justice for all. If they reject that, the question is what ethic/principle DO they honor?

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@livinglava,

It's an early stepping stone to jingoism. Let the kids breath and grow.

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

It's an early stepping stone to jingoism. Let the kids breath and grow.

On the contrary, it is an early inoculation against fascism, which elevates the collective to primacy, above the individual, and seeks to subjugate individual 'liberty' to serve the social collective. In fascism, justice whether for all or some is irrelevant because everything boils down to loyalty to the group and deference to its authority and leaders.

Children practice fascism among themselves while simultaneously fighting against other authorities, such as parents, teachers, police, etc. They might refuse to stand for the pledge of allegiance precisely because some bully they respect as their leader told them to "F the police, F the school, etc." You can tell them that they are free to stand for the pledge if they choose, but they will resist for fear of being shunned/ridiculed by the fascist pressure to conform to a peer social culture. It is sometimes assumed that rebellious children are anarchistic, but if you look closely, they are actually in submission/subjugation to group culture and fear of peer ridicule/violence/bullying.

That is where fascism and jingoism begin, not with the pledge of allegiance to liberty and justice for all.

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@livinglava,

Regimenting kids is stifling to character and creativity.

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

Regimenting kids is stifling to character and creativity.

Why aren't you acknowledging what I'm saying about peer-group socialization teaching fascism? They are stifling their own character and creativity development by pressuring each other into social-cultural conformity.

The pledge just ensures they learn the principle of 'liberty and justice for all,' which they may not comprehend for years until they finally realize it's better to stand up against social-conformist culture than to go along with it for the sake of popularity and avoiding ridicule/bullying.

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@livinglava,

Let me get this straight...

You are saying that in Nazi Germany, it was the people who weren't doing the Nazi salute who were the fascists? In my opinion, these people who included Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses were heroes.

People went to concentration camps for refusing to salute the Nazi flag. You can twist anything in history... I have never seen a fascist regime that didn't enforce a pledge of allegiance.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Let me get this straight...

You are saying that in Nazi Germany, it was the people who weren't doing the Nazi salute who were the fascists? In my opinion, these people who included Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses were heroes.

You're drawing a false parallel between WWII nazi fascism and the US ideology, which is explicitly about liberty and not social solidarity of national citizens against national enemies.

People naturally form in-groups and out-groups and engage in bullying, shunning, ridicule, etc. Liberty and justice are what stop people from abusing power to forge stronger in-group solidarity and exclusion of others. I.e. you may not be a member of my in-group, but I respect your liberty and I know that you have the same right to justice as everyone else. It's not about loyalty and solidarity to any group, including the nation. It's about honoring liberty and justice for all.

Quote:

People went to concentration camps for refusing to salute the Nazi flag. You can twist anything in history... I have never seen a fascist regime that didn't enforce a pledge of allegiance.

What you seem to be incapable of understanding is that sometimes people resist things like participation in the pledge of allegiance because of fascist social pressures. Maybe a few decades ago, many people didn't care about the meaning of the pledge but they stood for it and even recited it out of social pressure, but now the people who are refusing to stand and recite it, or who are kneeling for the Star Spangled Banner, etc. many (I won't say all) are doing so out of social conformity to a different source of social pressure besides nationalism/patriotic culture.

In short, they are not independently thinking and choosing but rather they are responding to social-cultural pressures on them from other people, media/politics, etc. So there is fascism at work, but it is not fascism in favor of liberty and justice for all; it is fascism against those principles.

What exactly these people believe in is not exactly clear to the extent they don't explicate it, but it seems to be about socialism and the belief that the US ideologies of liberty and justice are insufficient if people are unsatisfied economically. They would like to sacrifice liberty and justice to get some more money, but they don't realize that when you take that route to economic gain, you end up sacrificing your own liberty and end up as a slave to unjust economic authorities.

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@livinglava,

Quote:

sometimes people resist things like participation in the pledge of allegiance because of fascist social pressures

Can you give me an example of this?

Fascists always love nationalist rituals. They start with Nationalism, Germany First or Italy First. They get symbols like brown shirts or red hats. Then they start talking about the dangers of immigrants.

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

Regimenting kids is stifling to character and creativity.

Based on your age, I am assuming that you were coerced as a child to recite the pledge. Did it stifle your character and creativity? If so how? I know that you enjoy creative writing. Do you think you would be a famous author today if not for the Pledge? Do you know of anyone whose character and creativity was stifled by the pledge?

Most schools (at least this was the case the last time I observed an Elementary School class) require that students remain in their seats during class (as opposed to wandering willy-nilly all over the room), do not run haphazardly through the halls, and eat rather than throw their lunches. This is regimentation. I don't, however, think we need to worry about the character and creativity of these students as a result.

The pledge takes how long to recite? 15 seconds? This isn't long enough to even bore a kid, let alone stifle him or her.

With the possible exception of the reference to God, what is objectionable to pledging allegiance to an indivisible nation with the creed of liberty and justice for all?

As I previously wrote an American citizen should have no trouble with this creed or in pledging allegiance to their nation and if they do they should leave. This, of course, doesn't mean they should be forced to leave if they refuse to recite the Pledge, but if I lived somewhere that wanted me to pledge allegiance to a creed to which I objected so vehemently that I found it offensive to recite, I would not be long in residence...unless constrained from leaving. In such places, consideration of voluntary recitation is non-existent...at least not aloud.

Allegiance is not worship or subjugation. It is unfathomable that any nation would not expect its citizens to hold allegiance to it (verbally pledged or not), and the more you believe in and desire a state which is intimately involved in the welfare and lives of its citizens the more you should want them to hold allegiance to that state. Such a state without personal, honest allegiance is a dictatorship or a short-lived hot mess.

Most of the resistance to the pledge is based on a childish attitude of "No one tells me what I have to say!" Most of the kids who make a big deal of it in school are either intelligent but smart-ass attention seekers or following the orders of their intelligent but smart-ass attention seeking parents.

The notion that any kind of oath of loyalty will itself assure loyalty is absurd. No one on the verge of committing treason is going to say to themselves "Damn! I can't do it because 10 years ago I took that oath!" Nor are any enemies of the US going to be found out when they refuse such an oath. I imagine that it can help stiffen up legal jeopardy in some way but that's about it. However, the purpose of the Pledge isn't to lock the minds of American children into any particular dogma, nor is it to condition them to become unquestioning stooges of the government or a charismatic leader (e.g. Hitler Youth). It's absurd to suggest it is a stepping stone to jingoism.

If you pledge your allegiance to a Republic based on liberty and justice for all, should it become no longer a Republic nor a nation where there are, to the greatest extent, enforced laws supporting liberty and justice for all, the pledge and your allegiance becomes null & void. Again, should such a thing happen I find it hard to imagine that most Americans would wish to remain here, without joining in efforts to return it to its aspirational position.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

I was a special case. People with Aspergers don't react the same way as others to the doings of others.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn,

Our basic disagreement is on what "liberty" and "justice" mean. I think you are arguing that Americans should be forced (or at least obligated strongly) to recite this pledge to "liberty and justice". Do you at least see the irony here?

There are lots of reasons that American citizens who believe in liberty and justice would not want to say the pledge.

- There are Americans who believe that making a pledge violates their religious faith.

- There are Americans who see the pledge being used as a political prop for causes they oppose and don't want to participate.

- There are Americans who work for liberty and justice who are philosophically opposed to rote pledges of any type.

- There are American high school kids who feel that saying rote words every morning is stupid.

The point is liberty. You feel like saying the pledge is important, and you are free do to so. Other Americans, including Americans who have sacrificed for liberty and justice, feel that for their own reasons, they don't want to participate.

I don't know how you define liberty... but forcing people to participate in a patriotic ritual against their wishes seems antithetical to any meaningful definition of the word "liberty".

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
sometimes people resist things like participation in the pledge of allegiance because of fascist social pressures

Can you give me an example of this?

Fascists always love nationalist rituals. They start with Nationalism, Germany First or Italy First. They get symbols like brown shirts or red hats. Then they start talking about the dangers of immigrants.

Think gangs. Gangs are a more localized form of collectivism/socialism/fascism than national socialism. Nazis were basically gang thugs, but they wore national colors instead of local gang colors.

So when someone is resisting the pledge of allegiance or kneeling for the Star Spangled Banner, it might be because they are acting as an independent individual; but it might also be because someone else told them it was fascist/etc. to stand/recite/sing and instead of questioning that, they simply went along with what they were told out of fear for being ridiculed for their choice.

Fear generates fascist submission, whether it is pro-nation or anti-nation. If you're told you're a fascist if you support nationalism and you fear being labeled a fascist and that's what motivates you to avoid nationalism, you have not really transcended fascism. The only way you can really transcend fascism is by overcoming fear, thinking independently, and making choices based on independent critical thought instead of fear and the will to conform to collective behavior/norms.

Fascism is so strong that people want to be left alone to submit to collective/social authority/culture/norms; so they will say that their choices are based on independent thought and not fear of ridicule or other collective/peer pressure responses. Hiding/denying your victimization is a big part of submitting to power. You have to obey your bully-master AND say that it's your independent choice and not submission, because otherwise you'll be ridiculed for submitting to fear and you're afraid of that too.

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@livinglava,

1. Are you saying that anyone who chooses not to cite the pledge of allegiance is rejecting liberty and justice for all?

2. Are you saying that anyone who chooses not to stand for the National anthem is rejecting liberty and justice for all?

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@Real Music,

Real Music wrote:

1. Are you saying that anyone who chooses not to cite the pledge of allegiance is rejecting liberty and justice for all?

Well they're certainly not affirming it if they resist pledging allegiance to it, are they?

Quote:

2. Are you saying that anyone who chooses not to stand for the National anthem is rejecting liberty and justice for all?

The Star Spangled banner isn't about liberty and justice specifically. It is about getting bombarded by rockets and then instead of feeling despair at the prospect of defeat/destruction, you focus on the positive, i.e. being able to see by "the rocket's red glare, the bomb's bursting in air" that "the flag was still there."

So they could see"by the dawn's early light" that the flag was still standing at Fort McHenry even if the people and property there had been given a mighty whoopin' by the British fleet.

So the song is about resisting despair and defeat when your attacker has gotten the best of you. You could say that is a prerequisite for liberty since it is always difficult to resist subjugation through violence, ridicule, etc. in order to persist in thinking and acting independently of bad authority.

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@livinglava,

Quote:

Well they're certainly not affirming it if they resist pledging allegiance to it, are they?

1. Or just maybe they resist citing the Pledge of Allegiance because they don't believe that America truly hold the values that they are reciting in the pledge.

2. Just maybe, through their own experiences, the words "Liberty and Justice for all" never seem to apply to them.

3. Or maybe they see with their own eyes that "liberty and justice for all" only applies to certain people, not all people.

4. Just maybe they refuse to cite the Pledge of Allegiance because they believe the words "Liberty and justice for all" is simply hypocritical words.

These are just some possible reasons. You won't know why another person chooses not to cite the pledge of the allegiance, unless they tell you their reasons.

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@Real Music,

Real Music wrote:

1. Or just maybe they resist citing the Pledge of Allegiance because they don't believe that America truly hold the values that they are reciting in the pledge.

That would misunderstand the entire notion of individual independence. It would assume that the nation is a collective social singularity and not simply free individuals operating individually according to their own volition, for better or worse.

Quote:

2. Just maybe, through their own experiences, the words "Liberty and Justice for all" never seem to apply to them.

So they justify shirking the responsibilities of liberty and justice by reference to some victimhood narrative or something to that effect?
i.e. I don't have to make choices responsibly and/or act justly and in accordance with justice because others have behaved irresponsibly and treated me (and/or my ancestors) unjustly?

Well, if you justify victimizing others because yet-others have victimized your and/or or your ancestoers in the past, doesn't that just make you a bully rationalized by anger and vengeance? If you are, say, a soccer fan and I was victimized at a soccer game in the past, does that justify me treating you irresponsibly or unjustly, even if you weren't even one of the individuals at the soccer game where I was victimized?

Quote:

3. Or maybe they see with their own eyes that "liberty and justice for all" only applies to certain people, not all people.

The creed says, "liberty and justice FOR ALL." If some people fail to honor that pledge, it's not the fault of the pledge/ideology.

Quote:

4. Just maybe they refuse to cite the Pledge of Allegiance because they believe the words "Liberty and justice for all" is simply hypocritical words.

If someone else says something with hypocrisy, irony, or sarcasm or whatever; why does that prevent you from saying it sincerely, i.e. if you truly believe in it?

Quote:

These are just some possible reasons. You won't know why another person chooses not to cite the pledge of the allegiance, unless they tell you their reasons.

It might be because they care more about collective power to force others to provide them with a higher economic standard, i.e. because they are socialist and they understand implicitly or explicitly that liberty and justice make socialist economic gains more difficult to justify.

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Alternative Pledge of Allegiance idea

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