Confused on Religion! Need Insight

That woulda been some trick: Mohammed was born at the end of the 6th Century, and Islam dares from the early 7th Century. Timeline: The History of Islam


Your "b)" and "c)" are credited by scholars and historians, and supported by the available evidence.

See:

Early Muslim Dogma: A Source-Critical Study: Cooke, M.
(Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1981)

Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World: Crone, P. and Cooke, M.
(Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1977)

Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam: Crone, P.
(Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1987)

Muqaddima fi l-ta'rikh al-akhar: Bashear, S.
(Jerusalem: Hebrew University of Jerusalem Press, 1984)

Quranic Studies: Sources and Methods of Scriptural Interpretation: Wansbrough, J. and Rippin, A., Eds.
(Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1977)

Narratives of Islamic Origins: The Beginning of Islamic Historical Writing : Donner, F.
(Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1991)

You're right, it was Seventh Century....I mistyped Eighth century. However, on how Mohammed received the text of the Qur'an is debatable as he was presumably illiterate and his background is somewhat in dispute among various scholars as the many biographies written of him are often in conflict (as are the suggested dates for his birth, death, etc.) As a young man he was exposed to both Christian and Jew and acquired a rudimentary and quite imperfect understanding of both religions.


Both were rejected after his 'visitation by the Angel Gabriel' and he spent most of the remainder of his adult life conducting small wars against both Christian and Jew until he had united all the Arabian tribes under one name and one religion. (It was his conquering of Mecca that established it as a mandatory shrine for visitation by Moslems since that time.)

Souce: Religious studies - University of South, Sewanee TN supplemented by other sources, some of which Timber cited.

Thanks Timber, (sniff) I missed you guys.

Fortunatly, it looks like you guys got of the subjet of tryin to beat my religion down or tryin hard to discredit it. So, I'm happy you guys got on a somewhat different subject. I don't know if I made myself clear on what I said about Islam. What I meant to say is they beleive that what happened in the Bible happened, but they beleive that Jesus was just another prophet instead of a savior. They beleive he kind of 'set the way' for Mohammed. Kind of like John the Baptist for Jesus.

Another thing, I'm just a Christian. I go to a Church of Christ. I don't believe that Catholics, Baptists, or anyone else who doesn't call themselves a Christian or doesn't attend a Church of Christ is a Christian. This probably doesn't have much of an affect on you guys that are atheist or Buddist or what have you, but it might surprise some and some might ask why i say that. Catholics aren't Christians because they've added their own crap to their practices. They've added all these cannons and laws. They have their organization of the church that's not authorized in the bible, such as having popes and whatnot. And as i said before they don't bear the name of Christ. It's supposed to be Christ's church, thus it's supposed to be named after him. Once again, Baptists don't bear the name of Christ. They think that once you're saved you're allways saved which in the bible many people have fallen away. In Acts 8, Simon the sorceror was converted then almost fell away. Numorous times Paul warned the different Churchs at that time to not fall away. Anyway those are 2 denominations I can disprove by the Bible which they supposedly go by. So, for the person who started this forum, I wouldn't join the catholics or baptists. As for me I 'go by the book'. I follow what it says in the new testiment and that's how I'm a menber of the Church of Christ.

If you do remember, the original purpose for this forum is to help out some guy who was, and probably still is, confused on religion. And if you recall you guys suggested several books that you beleive had good insight on religion. Well, then I suggested the Bible because I thought it had a good insight on religion. I don't think you guys liked it that much from how you tried to take everything I said and rip it apart. Well, for my closing statement I will say this: I recomended the Bible because I believe it is the inspired word of God and the only inspired word of God. I'm sorry I recomended a book that was inspired by God, instead of recomending a book that is written by self-proclaimed know-it-alls on religion who really don't have a greater authority on religion than you or me. Anyway that's just about all I have to say in this forum and I will say that I did have some fun reading what you had to say about my statements. And I will take what you guys said in consideration and use it to prepare my arguments for what I believe in more strongly.

Fortunatly, it looks like you guys got of the subjet of tryin to beat my religion down or tryin hard to discredit it. So, I'm happy you guys got on a somewhat different subject. I don't know if I made myself clear on what I said about Islam. What I meant to say is they beleive that what happened in the Bible happened, but they beleive that Jesus was just another prophet instead of a savior. They beleive he kind of 'set the way' for Mohammed. Kind of like John the Baptist for Jesus.

Another thing, I'm just a Christian. I go to a Church of Christ. I don't believe that Catholics, Baptists, or anyone else who doesn't call themselves a Christian or doesn't attend a Church of Christ is a Christian. This probably doesn't have much of an affect on you guys that are atheist or Buddist or what have you, but it might surprise some and some might ask why i say that. Catholics aren't Christians because they've added their own crap to their practices. They've added all these cannons and laws. They have their organization of the church that's not authorized in the bible, such as having popes and whatnot. And as i said before they don't bear the name of Christ. It's supposed to be Christ's church, thus it's supposed to be named after him. Once again, Baptists don't bear the name of Christ. They think that once you're saved you're allways saved which in the bible many people have fallen away. In Acts 8, Simon the sorceror was converted then almost fell away. Numorous times Paul warned the different Churchs at that time to not fall away. Anyway those are 2 denominations I can disprove by the Bible which they supposedly go by. So, for the person who started this forum, I wouldn't join the catholics or baptists. As for me I 'go by the book'. I follow what it says in the new testiment and that's how I'm a menber of the Church of Christ.

If you do remember, the original purpose for this forum is to help out some guy who was, and probably still is, confused on religion. And if you recall you guys suggested several books that you beleive had good insight on religion. Well, then I suggested the Bible because I thought it had a good insight on religion. I don't think you guys liked it that much from how you tried to take everything I said and rip it apart. Well, for my closing statement I will say this: I recomended the Bible because I believe it is the inspired word of God and the only inspired word of God. I'm sorry I recomended a book that was inspired by God, instead of recomending a book that is written by self-proclaimed know-it-alls on religion who really don't have a greater authority on religion than you or me. Anyway that's just about all I have to say in this forum and I will say that I did have some fun reading what you had to say about my statements. And I will take what you guys said in consideration and use it to prepare my arguments for what I believe in more strongly.

Fortunatly, it looks like you guys got of the subjet of tryin to beat my religion down or tryin hard to discredit it. So, I'm happy you guys got on a somewhat different subject. I don't know if I made myself clear on what I said about Islam. What I meant to say is they beleive that what happened in the Bible happened, but they beleive that Jesus was just another prophet instead of a savior. They beleive he kind of 'set the way' for Mohammed. Kind of like John the Baptist for Jesus.

Another thing, I'm just a Christian. I go to a Church of Christ. I don't believe that Catholics, Baptists, or anyone else who doesn't call themselves a Christian or doesn't attend a Church of Christ is a Christian. This probably doesn't have much of an affect on you guys that are atheist or Buddist or what have you, but it might surprise some and some might ask why i say that. Catholics aren't Christians because they've added their own crap to their practices. They've added all these cannons and laws. They have their organization of the church that's not authorized in the bible, such as having popes and whatnot. And as i said before they don't bear the name of Christ. It's supposed to be Christ's church, thus it's supposed to be named after him. Once again, Baptists don't bear the name of Christ. They think that once you're saved you're allways saved which in the bible many people have fallen away. In Acts 8, Simon the sorceror was converted then almost fell away. Numorous times Paul warned the different Churchs at that time to not fall away. Anyway those are 2 denominations I can disprove by the Bible which they supposedly go by. So, for the person who started this forum, I wouldn't join the catholics or baptists. As for me I 'go by the book'. I follow what it says in the new testiment and that's how I'm a menber of the Church of Christ.

If you do remember, the original purpose for this forum is to help out some guy who was, and probably still is, confused on religion. And if you recall you guys suggested several books that you beleive had good insight on religion. Well, then I suggested the Bible because I thought it had a good insight on religion. I don't think you guys liked it that much from how you tried to take everything I said and rip it apart. Well, for my closing statement I will say this: I recomended the Bible because I believe it is the inspired word of God and the only inspired word of God. I'm sorry I recomended a book that was inspired by God, instead of recomending a book that is written by self-proclaimed know-it-alls on religion who really don't have a greater authority on religion than you or me. Anyway that's just about all I have to say in this forum and I will say that I did have some fun reading what you had to say about my statements. And I will take what you guys said in consideration and use it to prepare my arguments for what I believe in more strongly.

Whoops! Sorry about the 3 posts; the computer screwed up on me. I hate Macs!

Confusion extends beyond religion.

What happened to the avatars?

Dunno what you're seein', Boo - they appear nominal to me. Mebbe somethin' at your end, mebbe a momentary site glitch I missed. I haven't noticed anyone else mentionin' anything similar.

Yeah, it was most likely my ancient PC, and it was temporary

Glad to see that it seems OK now. 'Least it wasn't due to theological confusion


Then again, ya should never discount the capriciousness of the data gods - wierd sense of humor in that crowd

I agree with the very first few posters who said this is a personal journey, but I applaud you for seeking out others' opinions on this matter as part of your process!

I, too, grew up in a non-religious home, though I would say we all believed in God. I was never baptized or confirmed... we rarely attended church.

I went to college questioning it, too. The fact that we feel a PULL to find SOMETHING does suggest to me that there has to be something else out there.. But, I am a simple mind. You won't get long philosophical debate out of this girl.

So, I will tell you MY take on it, but know that I am not trying to preach or change anyone... this is just how I get through life...

To me it is simple. I do believe in God. I don't believe in religions that man made up. Do I believe the bible? Not the way many religions interpret it, no. I admit to using it when I need inspiration, but I don't sit and try analyze everything in it.

I feel both scientists and total right-wing religions are off the mark a bit... that they both can exist peacefully together. Many scientists are, infact, Christians as well...

It is hard to explain.... for me it is all about feeling. I go with what I feel... I listen to my heart.... which would make me more spiritual than analytical. Therefore, this probably won't make any sense at all...lol.

But, what I FEEL is that there IS a God.... I KNOW when I have tried to follow God's Will I did better in my life.... I KNOW I have had miracles in my life. I KNOW there is a higher purpose..... I FEEL IT.

So, either I am completely WHACKO>...lol... OR... there really is a higher power out there.

But, you will arrive at your own beliefs just by living life.... keep an open mind.... listen to your heart, too! ;-) Good luck and enjoy your college years.... how quickly things change when they are done!!

Welcome to A2K, vermiliongold. Good post. No better advice could one give than "to follow your heart."

Timber,Timber...tsk,tsk,tsk.

Vermiliongold and MerryAndrew,
....As god is love, God is thought- excerpt from the "book of The Boo'

Re: Confused on Religion! Need Insight

Just "believing" something is pointless and could be dangerous if that something isn't true.

I can "believe" I can fly, but gravity may wake me out of my belief if I choose to become a practicing "believer".

Faith rests on facts, not feelings. What you believe should be based on what is true.

If something is not true, it should be discarded and discredited. All "beliefs" do not share equal status, since they all cannot be true at the same time.

Examples:

There is either no God, one God, or many Gods. Only one of these can be true.

Either man was designed and created by an intelligent being , or he was not. Both cannot hold equal validity.

Either man is responsible and accountable for his actions, or he is not.

-----------------

The modernistic " it's all about how I feel" is a recipe for social anarchy, since no one is answerable for anything and nobody can say anything is wrong. Any society that has accepted such a philosophy soon ceased to exist.

It is man's attempt to be his own god, the worst religion imaginable. Can you imagine a world with 6 billion "gods" each doing their own thing?

As far as your perception that evolution is somehow cancelling out your belief in Adam, I will tell you a story.

My aunt, a brilliant woman, was a PhD. She taught science at the university. She was also an agnostic for much of her life. A rather fierce one at that.

One semester while preparing the lesson on evolution, she put pen to paper to calculate what great odds had been overcome to produce life from non-life to take the first tiny step in the evolutionary saga.

The number is staggering. It is far beyond mathematically impossible to believe that even one living cell somehow built itself out of raw chemical.

Being a scientist and honest, she presented to her class her conclusion. No longer an agnostic, you can imagine the resistance she encountered. But to remain true to her scientific training, the facts had to rule. Either the numbers add up, or they don't. Her feelings had to give way to fact.

nice one real life

I wonder if perhaps your aunt considered the likelyhood that her calculations were missing factors that she was unaware of.

Missing factors don't automatically lead one to conclude that the missing factor must be a creator.

In recent years chaos scientists have surprisingly discovered that order throws itself together from chaos all the time, quite a common thing in the universe. Perhaps this is just one of the missing variables in your aunt's formula.

The other possible missing factor might be a logical one. Did she multiply the chance of life occuring one every planet in the universe, or of just this planet? See, it's no co-incidence that she just happens to be looking at the results from the one planet that actually succeeded.

To put it more clearly, if the chances of life on earth occuring spontaneously are a gazillion to one...and there are a gazillion planets in the universe, then the chance becomes 1:1
Since she is a direct result of life occuring then it is not at all freaky that it was this planet that it occured on.

No doubt there were missing factors that probably caused her to actually underestimate the odds that would have to be overcome. In recent years biologists have learned that even simple celled life is enormously MORE complicated than was even dreamed a few years ago. The odds of life occurring from non-life are therefore far more remote than were thought even a short time ago.

However I think your estimate of a gazillion planets is far too optimistic. Gotta give ya credit for tryin' though.

The postulated "order from chaos" that you mention has never been observed, only theorized by hopeful optimists. Theirs is a faith not yet founded on facts.

Since it has not been observed nor documented, it is somewhat premature to say it happens all the time. Such an observed reversal of the law of entropy would indeed make big headlines, but so far no one has stepped up with anything close to verifiable data.