Women of a certain age.

Diane and msolga, I agree. You're both far too nice. I, on the other hand, am far too negative to be nice. And nice was not something I ever aspired to.

I suspect that I have other redeeming qualities. As soon as I figure out what they are, I'll let you know.


BTW, I'm not sure I know what "nice" is. I just know that I never wanted to be it.

Roberta, we know about your wonderful qualities already.

Would you like us to tell you? :wink:

My working definition goes something like this: doing the "right" thing (for too long) ultimately to your own detriment.

How's that?

Don't agree. (What else is new?) First of all your definition applies, I think, to "too nice." In my mind, niceness implies an agreeableness, if there is such a word (among other things). Doing the right thing suggests ethics and morality. Someone can do the right thing and not be nice about it.

Oh you are so difficult, Roberta!

And I have just woken up on a beautiful Sunday morning! (It's raining! Steadily. Wow!)

I will think about what you've said & trump you later!:wink:

(Just kidding!)

Trump away, kid.

I'm going to remind you of an exchange I related on the Hebonics thread. I was having a minor disagreement with my mother. At one point I said, "I'm just trying to be nice." She said, "Don't be nice. Just be yourself."

Enjoy the rain and the day.

I was raised to be polite, indeed, had courtesy classes from Miss Hanbury at our Girls' Academy. I guess those classes are back now in some places.
At the time I took them, say, 1957 or '58, they came surrounded by other baggage, such as, women must obey their husbands.

Later, I spent years in a culture of tell it like it is, and cut the bullsh*t, and after that, in a nest of pals going through various psychological therapies, more straight talk.

I think niceness can be a shield from actual contact, at the same time I think there are good things about real, elemental courtesy. I long ago stopped lying - at least forty years ago. Not that I'm so fine, I know I have instincts to the passive aggressive after my combined social learning cultures and perhaps from my own evil interior twin.

Skipping genders, someone like JLNobody argues freely and well but (er, generally) leaves people with their dignity in the discourse.

Oh I will, Roberta! Thanks.

And I'm most definitely not in a trump-ish mood today! As if I could trump you! Ha!

Wise words indeed from your mother.

Interesting, isn't it, how many different connotations of nice there are. My version is trying to please others to my own detriment, in other words, being damn wimpy.

MsOlga has experienced doing the right thing to her own detriment, which, when you think about it, might also just be wimpy rather than moral--depends on lots of variables, although her morality does not come into question here, she has shown herself to be moral and a woman of integrity.

Has anyone watched Saturday Night Live when the character The Church Lady was on? She was always saying, "Well isn't that special?" in a sort of simpering voice. She was a good example of niceness that was usually openly hypocritical.

I have used niceness as a tool for putting certain people down. If a salesperson is being boorishly obtuse, I tend to become increasingly "nice." Niceness can be cutting, even insulting and I have used it in such ways--it can be effective in making a contrast to boorish behavior---but it sometimes isn't very "nice."

Osso, I think put it well:



So true, a shield for protection from opening oneself up too much, while being couteous can be, often , much 'nicer' than being nice.

Have I said that right? What do you all think?

Anyway, wimpyness by any other name is booring and cowardly and limiting to ones very humanity. God knows it took an enormous amount of courage for me to leave a marriage of 34 years!

It has been so worth it.

Roberta makes it quite clear that she isn't nice, has never been nice, and has no intention of starting now. (She is lying, but don't tell her I said so). The best way to anger Roberta is by telling her how nice she is.

Could I just say that by "niceness" I didn't mean wimpiness. It's a bit more complicated than that. That'll teach me not to choose my words very, very carefully! :wink:

I could explain what I actually mean in a bit more detail (& bore you all silly!) but right now I have to shower & get ready for a late lunch ... & I'm still in my pyjamas at midday! It's all A2K's fault!

I like to read along with this thread. Sometimes I think I romance in my mind over what it was like to be a girl, and forget how good it is to be a woman!
This thread makes me feel really damn proud and good to be a woman.

Heh. To tell yall the truth, it's hard for me too to hear that I am 'nice'. 'Nice' readily becomes a scary questionable thing in my mind. I think of submission, and being underhanded.

First thing that springs up is memories of women and girls saying "Oh, I'm just too nice to do that. " (meanwhile she is doing something casually cruel).
Usually, it translated into them having too big of an ego, IM never humble O.
Or having to people please all the damn time.
Or avoiding the damn subject! lol. Nothing more frustrating and infuriating than avoidance, to me.

Oy. It still can get under my skin. Not genuine nice - which I think is a mixture of tact, kindness, and manners.
Hey, I'm working on that - tact and all. :wink:

The 'nice' that means FAKE. Manipulative. Not the genuine article. BS spouting forth, stand back.

Those ones you have to be careful with. There is nothing as harsh as 'nice' cattiness! It's all under the guise of something else. She'll tell you are a sweetheart and secretly find you the biggest bitch going...

Oh, I can see the strained grin and complimentary 'heavens no, you are too smart for that ' this would receive from Mrs. Nice, now.

Oh yeah, I think respect should be added to the qualities that makes up nice.

A2K is filled with women with varying mixes of nice and spice. I like that. Too much of any one thing is hard on the senses.

Hey, Diane, Go ahead and call me nice. I'm only moderately annoyed. Call me sweet, and I get wild.

Some interesting points here about how we perceive this word. I am polite. I am often kind. I am often tactful. Does that make up nice? Not to me. To me, those qualities are politeness, kindness, and tact.

I think I associate the word "nice" with a kind of mildness of nature, which most assuredly does not apply to me, and which may be inaccurate when applied to others. I'm talking about my perception--not the reality.

Osso makes an outstanding point about niceness. It can be used to create distance.

Other descriptions of "niceness," IMO aren't niceness at all. They're manipulation and hypocrisy.

This word apparently means different things to each of us. But does anyone view it in a postive way? Depends on your definition. However, we're still waiting for msolga to respond. She had to change out of her PJs and get a move on.

(Note to no one in particular: This is the second time in several days that I've called someone here on something. Define your terms. What do you mean? I am polite, kind, and tactful. I'm also exacting, picky, and a colossal pain in the patoot. No arguments there.)

Flushd, amen to isn't it nice to be a WOMAN? While I've often said that I wish Dys and I had found each other long ago, we both agree that it probably wouldn't have worked when we were young. Too many hang ups and too much defensiveness and way too much growing up to do.

Nice can be so many things. You mentioned tact, kindness and manners as examples of genuine niceness. Your definition mixed with Osso's, I think sums up what real niceness means. The combination of assertiveness and niceness can't be beat and, for me, implies strength of character.

I don't know how old you are, flushd, but at 64, I am from a generation of women who didn't make too much noise and were supposed to be pleasing. Marriage vows aways included the phrase "Obey" for the bride.

There are so many reasons for loving being beyond all that. Women of a certain age have made tremendous changes that will benefit women for generations to come. (Unless someone figures out how to clone Phyllis Schafly, the goddess forbid).

Hi, I've been reading along a bit....

Just wanted to jump in and admit that I am not nice. For me, being nice is often not being truthful or honest.

I'm more likely to say what I think. I have learned the value of keeping my mouth shut. But if someone asks for my opinion, they better want to hear it!

I'd like to learn more tact. I'm working on it.

I'm not sure that when I first learned the word nice, back in its heyday, that it had all these negs hanging from it. They just grew over time. So, for me, nice in in 1955 wasn't full of negative values. Just a word.

First of all: msOlga, I would never consider you to be wimpy. It was a feeble attempt at humor. I don't consider myself to be wimpy, except when it comes to some things....moving right along.....

All this made me go to Merriam-Webster to look up "nice.'


Main Entry: nice
Pronunciation: 'nIs
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): nic·er; nic·est
Etymology: Middle English, foolish, wanton, from Anglo-French, silly, simple, from Latin nescius ignorant, from nescire not to know -- more at NESCIENCE
1 obsolete a : WANTON, DISSOLUTE b : COY, RETICENT
2 a : showing fastidious or finicky tastes : PARTICULAR <too nice a palate to enjoy junk food> b : exacting in requirements or standards : PUNCTILIOUS <a nice code of honor>
3 : possessing, marked by, or demanding great or excessive precision and delicacy <nice measurements>
4 obsolete : TRIVIAL
5 a : PLEASING, AGREEABLE <a nice time> <a nice person> b : well-executed <nice shot> c : APPROPRIATE, FITTING <not a nice word for a formal occasion>
6 a : socially acceptable : WELL-BRED <from a nice family> b : VIRTUOUS, RESPECTABLE <was taught that nice girls don't do that>
7 : POLITE, KIND <that's nice of you to say>
synonym see CORRECT
- nice adverb
- nice·ly adverb
- nice·ness noun
===============================


Main Entry: nice-nel·ly
Pronunciation: 'nIs-'ne-lE
Function: adjective
Usage: often capitalized 2d N
Etymology: from the name Nelly
1 : marked by euphemism
2 : PRUDISH
- nice nelly noun, often capitalized 2d N
- nice-nel·ly·ism /-"i-z&m/ noun, often capitalized 2d N
==========================

Interesting, isn't it, that there have always been some negative connotations to the word.

I had heard nice nelly used, but it was ;pronounced as if it was describing a girl named Nelly--English pronunciation rather than French.

Obviously, nice has taken quite a few turns over hundreds of years, seeming to retain bits of the old definitions up to today's use of the word.

Stephen Colbert keeps coming to mind, but I digress.

Caribou, you are in excellent company with Roberta. The two of you should always be in sync as far as speaking your mind.

Now I say goodnight to all. It's early, but I'm tired and Dys is already in bed.

Say goodnight, Gracie.

Goodnight Gracie

I'm back. (after a terrific Vietnamese lunch! )

Roberta, my initial comment on "niceness" was a spontaneous response to Diane's description of herself in being nice for too long prior to seeing the light & changing at around age 60.

I was using the term subjectively & specifically about my own experience. What I meant was that I've regretted putting unconditional loyalty & commitment into a major long-term relationship (which later went kaput) before my own, separate long-term interests. I have come out of that situation not all too wonderfully, to put it mildly. Had I been as protective of my own interests (or been as selfish, I guess) as my ex-partner was (or became), I'd be in a much better position financially (& in a number of other ways) today. That might be quite a stretch of describing my behavior as being "nice" ... but I was, he wasn't (or changed over time) & I now regret not being more selfish throughout that relationship. But <sigh> that was who I was at that time. I don't think I'll be that sort of nice again.

Does that make sense? Don't worry if it doesn't. I know what I meant! :wink:

msolga, It makes perfect sense.

I'm going to stop being picky on terminology. I understand what you and Diane are saying. That's the important part.

I hope you and Diane realize what sea changes you've brought about in yourselves. Hard lessons learned. Yet there are many who experience similar things and learn nothing. Change nothing.

I think you both had to go against your own nature--your own instincts--to make changes. That is very hard, very painful, and monumental.

I've occasionally battled my own nature and not won the fight. I can be a pain in the ass, even to myself.

I respect enormously those who win.

Ah, but there was absolutely no choice but to learn, Roberta.