@chai2,
chai2 wrote:
livinglava wrote:
It seems unnecessary to me, but let's not discuss it further.
This seems to be exactly your reaction to me too.
Would you care to challenge yourself to present evidence of a god, that isn't just a statement such as "God = (X)", or saying evidence isn't needed, or things like you "Just know"?
Not meaning this in any negative way at all. I am truly interested in what you would present as proof that god exists.
God is not a thing that exists in the universe. God is a way of understanding the universe, the same as 'self' is a way of understanding the body and/or the mind. The brain is a collection of cells and biochemical processes, yet you experience it as 'I,' 'myself,' etc. Why do you anthropomorphize a collection of cells just because you personally experience them as a unified consciousness? You could just as easily insist that no self exists, as many philosophers have, and refer to yourself as 'the body.'
Understanding the language of, 'God,' as an agent for the natural processes of the universe is just a way of attributing agency to natural phenomena. As I wrote earlier, primitive humans experience natural phenomena in terms of multiple agents, e.g. the god of the wind or the god of the water. If rain caused a flood and drowned their animals, they would experience that in terms of an angry god punishing them. Modern individuals have the same experience, i.e. that when natural events harm them, it is due to some supernatural deity punishing them or allowing them to suffer.
Monotheism is just the realization that the entirety of nature is unified as a single system. A singular God can thus replace all the many gods of the water, wind, sun, etc. etc. There's no 'proof' for the existence of these gods or God because they are just ways humans make sense of their experiences of nature. All atheists are really arguing for is that people should stop thinking of nature in terms of agency and think about it without agency. E.g. when your house floods, just think of it in terms of the water cycle and your house being in a spot with poor drainage or low elevation, not in terms of all the intersecting aspects of nature summing up to a single agency that humans can identify with as being like themselves.
When we say that humans are created in the likeness of God, another way to understand that is that humans are made of the same stuff as the rest of the universe and therefore that we can model the rest of the universe in the same way we model ourselves, i.e. as having consciousness, willpower, intelligence etc. These human phenomena are not radically distinct from the rest of the universe. We just imagine them in terms of radical difference because our minds give us the ability to radically differentiate between otherwise similar things. If you think in terms of the commonalities between things instead of radically differentiating them, then you will see how everything is fundamentally similar to other things and only superficially different from them. We're just not used to thinking in terms of commonalities because differentiation and classification is how we make sense of things.