11
   

So we are back to the Cold War again?

 
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 8 Nov, 2018 11:36 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I referred to you as a crypto-fascist, because I don't know that you favor a broad fascist agenda (I also don't know that you don't). Banning all opposition parties (and there are, realistically, only two parties in the United States) is a classic fascist tactic, and the first significant move of any fascist state--as was the case in the 1930s in Europe in Spain, Italy, Germany and Hungary, and as was the case in Japan in the late 1920s.
Banning opposition is a trait of dictatorships in general. It isn't specific to fascism.

I do not call for all opposition be banned. I only call for banning groups that maliciously conduct witch hunts against innocent people.

Setanta wrote:
Your absurd, in fact idiotic claim about the Democratic party
Hardly absurd or idiotic to defend innocent people from vicious witch hunts.

Setanta wrote:
as are about nine-tenths of all your claims, completely unsubstantiated.
I've always made it clear that I will provide a cite for any of my claims if anyone is skeptical.

The witch hunts against Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, George W Bush, and Donald Trump were pretty widely covered in the media. If you'd like, I should be able to go get a wikipedia link describing each witch hunt.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 8 Nov, 2018 11:39 am
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
Yeah, and the dog ate their homework. Excuses excuses.
The fact that the Syrians were flying obsolete aircraft (that were configured for ground attack) and had little training hardly makes it a reasonable comparison to a situation involving trained enemies in modern fighters.

Blickers wrote:
Fact is, the Syrians had Russian built planes and were trained by Russians,
They had old and obsolete planes. Their planes were configured for ground attack. And they had very little training.

Blickers wrote:
and 100 Russian supplied Syrian fighter jets got shot down by American fighter jets while no Syrian fighter jet successfully shot down an American fighter jet
That is a reasonable outcome to expect when old Vietnam-era planes, configured for ground attack, flown by poorly-trained pilots, go up against F-15s.

It has little to do with how a F-15 or F-16 (or F-35) would do against a Mig-29 flown by a competent Soviet pilot.

Blickers wrote:
Again, you've got to lay off reading those right wing websites. I keep tellin' ya, they get their info from the Russkies and just repost it, thereby saving money on actual reporters.
Equating facts with conservatism only demonstrates that conservatives are on the right side of history.

Blickers wrote:
In the Korean War, American fighters had a "kill ratio" of 10:1, (ten enemy fighters shot down for each American fighter lost).

For the US Air Force in Vietnam, it was5.5:1 for the early years of the war and 15:1 for the later years. For the US Navy in Vietnam it was 6.4:1 for the early years then 8.5:1. This is for fighter jets shooting at other fighter jets, not fighter jets shooting at cargo planes or bombers. The fighter-on-fighter stats are called "MiGCAP" stats.
How did they do against highly-trained Soviet pilots?

"Aviators from four nations may have qualified as aces during the Korean War; between six and nine aces have been estimated for China and up to four in North Korea. Pilots of the Soviet Union had the most difficulty confirming victories and accurately determining which pilots achieved ace status, and between 34 and 60 pilots from that nation have been postulated as possible aces in the war. For the United Nations, the United States was the only country with pilots to attain ace status, with 40 documented aces."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Korean_War_flying_aces

Forcing the Air Force to rely on obsolete planes will suffice against some third-world country. The trouble will come when the Air Force has to confront a peer power.

Blickers wrote:
Your conclusion that the huge advantage in military spending for the US over any other country does not pay off in superior weapons is proven wrong.
That is incorrect. Large spending numbers will not erase the lack of air-superiority fighters that the left has inflicted on our military.

Blickers wrote:
Our warplanes have always been better than anything the Russians can make. Partly because of our experience, partly because of how much more we spend.
That is incorrect. The Soviets were always able to equal us.

Blickers wrote:
The Russians are way behind us, as they are way behind us now with our new F-35s.
The Russians are behind us now because they are no longer a peer power (except for their nukes of course). It is unlikely that they train their pilots as well as the Soviets did.

Unfortunately there are other peer powers rising elsewhere in the world to replace Russia. Chinese pilots can be expected to be highly trained, for example.

Blickers wrote:
Trying to accuse the Democrats of ignoring natonal defense is nonsense,
Not when they strip the US Air Force of the modern air superiority fighters that it needs to protect against enemy aircraftt.
Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Nov, 2018 12:23 pm
@oralloy,
Quote oralloy:
Quote:
How did they [American pilots] do against highly-trained Soviet pilots?
You just revealed yourself as being unable to comment on national defense issues intelligently. Since the Cold War began, both the US and Russia have taken great pains to not to have their troops shoot each other, in order to avoid a nuclear catastrophe occurring.

So for the past 73 years it has been the US shooting at people Russia arms or Russia shooting at people the US arms, never Russia and the US shooting at each other. This policy has done an admirable job of keeping the planet in one piece.

So when you ask for statistics about how Americans fare shooting at Russians in the air, you pretty much show that you have no idea what has been going on in the world for quite a few decades now, since there has been no conflict with American air fighters shooting at Russian piloted fighters, or vice versa.

Just to repeat, here is the record of American fighter pilots shooting at Russian made MiGs. This makes clear how far above all other nations we are in air superiority and military hardware generally.

https://i.imgur.com/KLDeCy5.jpg?1

This superiority comes from experience building the world's best weapons, and the immense amount of money we have sunk into this, much more than the next 7 top nations combined.

izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Nov, 2018 12:34 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

You just revealed yourself as being unable to comment on national defense issues intelligently.


Why limit yourself to national defence? He doesn't have a clue about anything, he can't distinguish between facts and opinion or between fantasy and reality. He's delusional.

Some RW posters may twist the truth completely out of shape but he doesn't even know what the truth is.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 8 Nov, 2018 03:55 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
You just revealed yourself as being unable to comment on national defense issues intelligently.
I think I'll manage to hold my own.

Blickers wrote:
Since the Cold War began, both the US and Russia have taken great pains to not to have their troops shoot each other, in order to avoid a nuclear catastrophe occurring.
Each side also took pains to ensure that they had a competent military force that was capable of matching the other side, so that the enemy would shy away from conflict.

Obama and the Democrats have now weakened the US military so that they will not be able to evenly match a future peer power.

So instead of meeting a future powerful enemy in a standoff, instead the US will just have to stand by and let the bad guys take over the world.

Blickers wrote:
So for the past 73 years it has been the US shooting at people Russia arms or Russia shooting at people the US arms, never Russia and the US shooting at each other.
That would have been news to all the Americans shot down by Soviet pilots in the Korean War.

Blickers wrote:
This policy has done an admirable job of keeping the planet in one piece.
Yes.

But that policy required us to be an even match to a peer power.

Unfortunately Obama and the Democrats have seen to it that we no longer have an adequate number of air superiority fighters, so this policy of security is now a thing of the past.

Blickers wrote:
So when you ask for statistics about how Americans fare shooting at Russians in the air, you pretty much show that you have no idea what has been going on in the world for quite a few decades now, since there has been no conflict with American air fighters shooting at Russian piloted fighters, or vice versa.
If it had been true that such a contest hadn't happened, that would undermine your claim of American fighters being proven to be superior, as the lack of a contest is hardly evidence of superiority.

But as it happens, such a contest has happened. Soviet pilots shot down plenty of American pilots during the Korean War.

Blickers wrote:
Just to repeat, here is the record of American fighter pilots shooting at Russian made MiGs. This makes clear how far above all other nations we are in air superiority and military hardware generally.
A record of shooting down untrained pilots from third-world countries does not demonstrate an ability to stand against a peer power.

Blickers wrote:
This superiority comes from experience building the world's best weapons, and the immense amount of money we have sunk into this, much more than the next 7 top nations combined.
It used to. But now we have a shortage of air-superiority fighters. A future peer rival will be able to down our planes easily, and then go on to bomb our ground forces.

Our future dead soldiers can thank Obama and that traitor McCain.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 8 Nov, 2018 03:57 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
He doesn't have a clue about anything, he can't distinguish between facts and opinion or between fantasy and reality. He's delusional.
Some RW posters may twist the truth completely out of shape but he doesn't even know what the truth is.
Your inability to point out anything that I am wrong about is painfully obvious.
glitterbag
 
  4  
Reply Thu 8 Nov, 2018 11:44 pm
@izzythepush,
It's sad.........and he doesn't know why.
Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 12:02 am
@oralloy,
Quote oralloy:
Quote:
That would have been news to all the Americans shot down by Soviet pilots in the Korean War.
As it turns out, although Russian pilots never officially flew against American planes, unofficially quite few did. The Soviets dressed in North Korean uniforms and were forbidden from flying near the border, lest they get captured and proof of their Russianhood emerge. But this fact does not help your side at all. The American F-86s had a 10:1 kill ratio against the Russian fighters. If quite a few of the MiGs were actually piloted by Russians, there is no way the Russian pilots can mathematically have even close to a 1:1 kill ratio against the Americans.

Any way you look at it, the American F-86s cleaned up against all the pilots in the MiGs, Russians included.

And moving into your own lifetime, the US had air superiority in VietNam and Syria as well. The gap in air superiority between the US and Russia has been growing, not shrinking. As this chart illustrates:

https://i.imgur.com/KLDeCy5.jpg?1

Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 12:06 am
@oralloy,
Quote oralloy:
Quote:
Unfortunately Obama and the Democrats have seen to it that we no longer have an adequate number of air superiority fighters, so this policy of security is now a thing of the past.

False. The F-35 - the most expensive weapons systems ever-is vastly superior to any fighter Russia has. The Russians can't hit what they can't see, and the stealth F-35 can't be seen by the Russkies.

That's why Russia is waging a propaganda war against the F-35 on YouTube, leading to the right wing media copying the criticism of the F-35 that the Russians push.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 12:24 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
As it turns out, although Russian pilots never officially flew against American planes, unofficially quite few did. The Soviets dressed in North Korean uniforms and were forbidden from flying near the border, lest they get captured and proof of their Russianhood emerge. But this fact does not help your side at all. The American F-86s had a 10:1 kill ratio against the Russian fighters. If quite a few of the MiGs were actually piloted by Russians, there is no way the Russian pilots can mathematically have even close to a 1:1 kill ratio against the Americans.

Any way you look at it, the American F-86s cleaned up against all the pilots in the MiGs, Russians included.
The stats say otherwise.

"Aviators from four nations may have qualified as aces during the Korean War; between six and nine aces have been estimated for China and up to four in North Korea. Pilots of the Soviet Union had the most difficulty confirming victories and accurately determining which pilots achieved ace status, and between 34 and 60 pilots from that nation have been postulated as possible aces in the war. For the United Nations, the United States was the only country with pilots to attain ace status, with 40 documented aces."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Korean_War_flying_aces

Blickers wrote:
And moving into your own lifetime, the US had air superiority in VietNam and Syria as well. The gap in air superiority between the US and Russia has been growing, not shrinking. As this chart illustrates:
Performance against a third-world country is hardly indicative of performance against a peer power.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 12:25 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
False. The F-35 - the most expensive weapons systems ever-is vastly superior to any fighter Russia has. The Russians can't hit what they can't see, and the stealth F-35 can't be seen by the Russkies.
The F-35 also can't hit what it can't see, and it has demonstrated a severe inability to detect enemy fighters in the air.

Blickers wrote:
That's why Russia is waging a propaganda war against the F-35 on YouTube, leading to the right wing media copying the criticism of the F-35 that the Russians push.
Air Force experts and Air Force documents demonstrating the inferiority of the F-35 have nothing to do with Russia.

If the right wing chooses to rely on expertise, that's a good thing.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 12:26 pm
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:
It's sad.........and he doesn't know why.
It must be embarrassing for you to never be able to point out anything that I'm wrong about. Are you a masochist?
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  5  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 01:48 pm
@oralloy,
I find it incredibly fascinating that you are so convinced that the Russians have pilots superior to the US pilots. Not only your fascination but your clumsy cherry picking of Russian propaganda, which I find shocking tovarish.
glitterbag
 
  3  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 01:49 pm
@glitterbag,
It's starting to make sense.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 04:35 pm
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

It's starting to make sense.

What? That military tech competition is about stimulating military industries for the benefit of investors and their beneficiaries globally?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 05:24 pm
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:
I find it incredibly fascinating that you are so convinced that the Russians have pilots superior to the US pilots.
You cannot point to a single case of me saying such a thing.

glitterbag wrote:
Not only your fascination but your clumsy cherry picking of Russian propaganda, which I find shocking tovarish.
You also cannot point to a single case of me citing Russian propaganda either in whole or in part.
Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 07:27 pm
@oralloy,
Why are you putting forth quotes which themselves illustrate the superiority of American aircraft over Russian aircraft in the Korean War and then claim the quotes mean Russian aircraft are as good? If you read the quotes, they say the precise opposite-the American aircraft are far superior.

Take this quote of yours for instance. Bolding mine:
Quote:
"Aviators from four nations may have qualified as aces during the Korean War; between six and nine aces have been estimated for China and up to four in North Korea [also estimated]. Pilots of the Soviet Union had the most difficulty confirming victories and accurately determining which pilots achieved ace status, and between 34 and 60 pilots from that nation have been postulated as possible aces in the war. For the United Nations, the United States was the only country with pilots to attain ace status, with 40 documented aces."

So for "evidence" your quote puts forth between six and nine "maybes" for China and up to four "maybes" for North Korea. The Soviet Union (Russia) admits it had difficulty but gives between 34 and 60 "maybes". Meanwhile, the only internationally accepted documentation of flying aces is 40 for the United States.

Couple that with the documented kill ratio for the F-36 of 10:1 over Russian built aircraft piloted by Russian, Chinese and North Korean pilots, and what you have is documented American superiority over a mishmash of maybes, perhapses and "duh-it-could-bes" for the Russian built fighter jets. Which, in this argument, is your side.

In short, all reliable documentation points to the American fighter aircraft decisively besting Russian aircraft in fighter to fighter confrontations by a wide margin. All other wars show the same thing. And now American air superiority continues with the F-35, the most expensive weapons system in history but one with features and abilities the Russians can only dream of.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 07:45 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
Why are you putting forth quotes which themselves illustrate the superiority of American aircraft over Russian aircraft in the Korean War and then claim the quotes mean Russian aircraft are as good? If you read the quotes, they say the precise opposite-the American aircraft are far superior.

Take this quote of yours for instance. Bolding mine:
Quote:
"Aviators from four nations may have qualified as aces during the Korean War; between six and nine aces have been estimated for China and up to four in North Korea [also estimated]. Pilots of the Soviet Union had the most difficulty confirming victories and accurately determining which pilots achieved ace status, and between 34 and 60 pilots from that nation have been postulated as possible aces in the war. For the United Nations, the United States was the only country with pilots to attain ace status, with 40 documented aces."

So for "evidence" your quote puts forth between six and nine "maybes" for China and up to four "maybes" for North Korea. The Soviet Union (Russia) admits it had difficulty but gives between 34 and 60 "maybes". Meanwhile, the only internationally accepted documentation of flying aces is 40 for the United States.

Couple that with the documented kill ratio for the F-36 of 10:1 over Russian built aircraft piloted by Russian, Chinese and North Korean pilots, and what you have is documented American superiority over a mishmash of maybes, perhapses and "duh-it-could-bes" for the Russian built fighter jets. Which, in this argument, is your side.

In short, all reliable documentation points to the American fighter aircraft decisively besting Russian aircraft in fighter to fighter confrontations by a wide margin.
I don't consider "40" to be a decisive victory over "34 to 60".

Blickers wrote:
All other wars show the same thing.
Victory over a third-world country does not indicate an ability to stand against a peer power.

Blickers wrote:
And now American air superiority continues with the F-35, the most expensive weapons system in history but one with features and abilities the Russians can only dream of.
The F-35's complete inability to function as an air superiority fighter means the end of American air superiority.
glitterbag
 
  3  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 09:17 pm
@oralloy,
I don't think you realize how careless you are with reality. You dither around with one silly allegation after another, promote notions that make a mockery of the Constitution and now........now some nonsense about Russians shooting US Pilots out of the air during the Korean War?????? In other words, you can posture all you want, you can claim that you only present truthiness.....it just won't spin this nonsense into the truth.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2018 09:32 pm
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:
I don't think you realize how careless you are with reality. You dither around with one silly allegation after another,
Your inability to point out any untrue statements on my part is painfully obvious.

glitterbag wrote:
promote notions that make a mockery of the Constitution
I defend the Constitution.

glitterbag wrote:
and now........now some nonsense about Russians shooting US Pilots out of the air during the Korean War??????
Your discomfort with reality does not make it nonsense.

glitterbag wrote:
In other words, you can posture all you want, you can claim that you only present truthiness.....it just won't spin this nonsense into the truth.
Your discomfort with reality does not change the fact that it is true.
0 Replies
 
 

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