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Wed 23 Mar, 2005 01:35 pm
I found this on the web and was sort of upset by the whole thing. I was raised Catholic but am not practicing anymore because of some of the teachings of the church.
In one part of his address the pope says :
"I should like particularly to underline how the administration of water and food, even when provided by artificial means, always represents a natural means of preserving life, not a medical act. Its use, furthermore, should be considered, in principle, ordinary and proportionate, and as such morally obligatory, insofar as and until it is seen to have attained its proper finality, which in the present case consists in providing nourishment to the patient and alleviation of his suffering."
How can anyone consider this normal and natural? Before this technology, this stuff didn't exist, and I am sure people went into comas and vegetative states.
He also says:
"Considerations about the "quality of life", often actually dictated by psychological, social and economic pressures, cannot take precedence over general principles."
I cannot believe that God would want one of his beloved children to be locked inside the shell we call a body while he/she is artificially kept on this earth.
This whole thing raised a lot of questions for me.
1 - How can the church consider this natural means? She would die without it. She cannot eat by herself. They are so against any artificial means why choose this as "natural" ? For example, contraceptives are not accepted because they are unnatural.
2- Are we expected to believe that God wants us to live like this, trapped inside our earthly bodies, not on earth but not in heaven? What kind of God are we serving?
3- If this is considered normal and natural, shouldn't a respirator or any other life maintaining device be considered natural and normal? Should allow people to just exist even if they are unable to communicate and interact in this world?
4- So we are, in essence, asked to prolong the suffering of a family and a woman. How is this right? How can the church condone this suffering?
Any comments or reactions to this are welcome. As a former practicing Catholic, I see such absurdity in many of the ideals of the church. I wish that things like this never happened, but I am sure that should this happened to me, I do NOT want to kept alive by any artificial means. Let me die, as I was intended to in the first place.
________________________________________________________
ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE INTERNATIONAL CONGRESS
ON "LIFE-SUSTAINING TREATMENTS AND VEGETATIVE STATE:
SCIENTIFIC ADVANCES AND ETHICAL DILEMMAS"
Saturday, 20 March 2004
Distinguished Ladies and Gentlemen,
1. I cordially greet all of you who took part in the International Congress: "Life-Sustaining Treatments and Vegetative State: Scientific Advances and Ethical Dilemmas". I wish to extend a special greeting to Bishop Elio Sgreccia, Vice-President of the Pontifical Academy for Life, and to Prof. Gian Luigi Gigli, President of the International Federation of Catholic Medical Associations and selfless champion of the fundamental value of life, who has kindly expressed your shared feelings.
This important Congress, organized jointly by the Pontifical Academy for Life and the International Federation of Catholic Medical Associations, is dealing with a very significant issue: the clinical condition called the "vegetative state". The complex scientific, ethical, social and pastoral implications of such a condition require in-depth reflections and a fruitful interdisciplinary dialogue, as evidenced by the intense and carefully structured programme of your work sessions.
2. With deep esteem and sincere hope, the Church encourages the efforts of men and women of science who, sometimes at great sacrifice, daily dedicate their task of study and research to the improvement of the diagnostic, therapeutic, prognostic and rehabilitative possibilities confronting those patients who rely completely on those who care for and assist them. The person in a vegetative state, in fact, shows no evident sign of self-awareness or of awareness of the environment, and seems unable to interact with others or to react to specific stimuli.
Scientists and researchers realize that one must, first of all, arrive at a correct diagnosis, which usually requires prolonged and careful observation in specialized centres, given also the high number of diagnostic errors reported in the literature. Moreover, not a few of these persons, with appropriate treatment and with specific rehabilitation programmes, have been able to emerge from a vegetative state. On the contrary, many others unfortunately remain prisoners of their condition even for long stretches of time and without needing technological support.
In particular, the term permanent vegetative state has been coined to indicate the condition of those patients whose "vegetative state" continues for over a year. Actually, there is no different diagnosis that corresponds to such a definition, but only a conventional prognostic judgment, relative to the fact that the recovery of patients, statistically speaking, is ever more difficult as the condition of vegetative state is prolonged in time.
However, we must neither forget nor underestimate that there are well-documented cases of at least partial recovery even after many years; we can thus state that medical science, up until now, is still unable to predict with certainty who among patients in this condition will recover and who will not.
3. Faced with patients in similar clinical conditions, there are some who cast doubt on the persistence of the "human quality" itself, almost as if the adjective "vegetative" (whose use is now solidly established), which symbolically describes a clinical state, could or should be instead applied to the sick as such, actually demeaning their value and personal dignity. In this sense, it must be noted that this term, even when confined to the clinical context, is certainly not the most felicitous when applied to human beings.
In opposition to such trends of thought, I feel the duty to reaffirm strongly that the intrinsic value and personal dignity of every human being do not change, no matter what the concrete circumstances of his or her life. A man, even if seriously ill or disabled in the exercise of his highest functions, is and always will be a man, and he will never become a "vegetable" or an "animal".
Even our brothers and sisters who find themselves in the clinical condition of a "vegetative state" retain their human dignity in all its fullness. The loving gaze of God the Father continues to fall upon them, acknowledging them as his sons and daughters, especially in need of help.
4. Medical doctors and health-care personnel, society and the Church have moral duties toward these persons from which they cannot exempt themselves without lessening the demands both of professional ethics and human and Christian solidarity.
The sick person in a vegetative state, awaiting recovery or a natural end, still has the right to basic health care (nutrition, hydration, cleanliness, warmth, etc.), and to the prevention of complications related to his confinement to bed. He also has the right to appropriate rehabilitative care and to be monitored for clinical signs of eventual recovery.
I should like particularly to underline how the administration of water and food, even when provided by artificial means, always represents a natural means of preserving life, not a medical act. Its use, furthermore, should be considered, in principle, ordinary and proportionate, and as such morally obligatory, insofar as and until it is seen to have attained its proper finality, which in the present case consists in providing nourishment to the patient and alleviation of his suffering.
The obligation to provide the "normal care due to the sick in such cases" (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Iura et Bona, p. IV) includes, in fact, the use of nutrition and hydration (cf. Pontifical Council "Cor Unum", Dans le Cadre, 2, 4, 4; Pontifical Council for Pastoral Assistance to Health Care Workers, Charter of Health Care Workers, n. 120). The evaluation of probabilities, founded on waning hopes for recovery when the vegetative state is prolonged beyond a year, cannot ethically justify the cessation or interruption of minimal care for the patient, including nutrition and hydration. Death by starvation or dehydration is, in fact, the only possible outcome as a result of their withdrawal. In this sense it ends up becoming, if done knowingly and willingly, true and proper euthanasia by omission.
In this regard, I recall what I wrote in the Encyclical Evangelium Vitae, making it clear that "by euthanasia in the true and proper sense must be understood an action or omission which by its very nature and intention brings about death, with the purpose of eliminating all pain"; such an act is always "a serious violation of the law of God, since it is the deliberate and morally unacceptable killing of a human person" (n. 65).
Besides, the moral principle is well known, according to which even the simple doubt of being in the presence of a living person already imposes the obligation of full respect and of abstaining from any act that aims at anticipating the person's death.
5. Considerations about the "quality of life", often actually dictated by psychological, social and economic pressures, cannot take precedence over general principles.
First of all, no evaluation of costs can outweigh the value of the fundamental good which we are trying to protect, that of human life. Moreover, to admit that decisions regarding man's life can be based on the external acknowledgment of its quality, is the same as acknowledging that increasing and decreasing levels of quality of life, and therefore of human dignity, can be attributed from an external perspective to any subject, thus introducing into social relations a discriminatory and eugenic principle.
Moreover, it is not possible to rule out a priori that the withdrawal of nutrition and hydration, as reported by authoritative studies, is the source of considerable suffering for the sick person, even if we can see only the reactions at the level of the autonomic nervous system or of gestures. Modern clinical neurophysiology and neuro-imaging techniques, in fact, seem to point to the lasting quality in these patients of elementary forms of communication and analysis of stimuli.
6. However, it is not enough to reaffirm the general principle according to which the value of a man's life cannot be made subordinate to any judgment of its quality expressed by other men; it is necessary to promote the taking of positive actions as a stand against pressures to withdraw hydration and nutrition as a way to put an end to the lives of these patients.
It is necessary, above all, to support those families who have had one of their loved ones struck down by this terrible clinical condition. They cannot be left alone with their heavy human, psychological and financial burden. Although the care for these patients is not, in general, particularly costly, society must allot sufficient resources for the care of this sort of frailty, by way of bringing about appropriate, concrete initiatives such as, for example, the creation of a network of awakening centres with specialized treatment and rehabilitation programmes; financial support and home assistance for families when patients are moved back home at the end of intensive rehabilitation programmes; the establishment of facilities which can accommodate those cases in which there is no family able to deal with the problem or to provide "breaks" for those families who are at risk of psychological and moral burn-out.
Proper care for these patients and their families should, moreover, include the presence and the witness of a medical doctor and an entire team, who are asked to help the family understand that they are there as allies who are in this struggle with them. The participation of volunteers represents a basic support to enable the family to break out of its isolation and to help it to realize that it is a precious and not a forsaken part of the social fabric.
In these situations, then, spiritual counselling and pastoral aid are particularly important as help for recovering the deepest meaning of an apparently desperate condition.
7. Distinguished Ladies and Gentlemen, in conclusion I exhort you, as men and women of science responsible for the dignity of the medical profession, to guard jealously the principle according to which the true task of medicine is "to cure if possible, always to care".
As a pledge and support of this, your authentic humanitarian mission to give comfort and support to your suffering brothers and sisters, I remind you of the words of Jesus: "Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me" (Mt 25: 40).
In this light, I invoke upon you the assistance of him, whom a meaningful saying of the Church Fathers describes as Christus medicus, and in entrusting your work to the protection of Mary, Consoler of the sick and Comforter of the dying, I lovingly bestow on all of you a special Apostolic Blessing.
hmm..
great topic, but i have'ta stay out. :-)
shewolfnm wrote:hmm..
great topic, but i have'ta stay out. :-)
I understand. I just want to know why or how anyone could believe this.
I figured I'd get at least ONE person to respond to me...
i DID
>sigh< im just not good enough for the goddess....
shewolfnm wrote:i DID
>sigh< im just not good enough for the goddess....
I know but you won't give me answers to why anyone could and would think like this.
Quote:2- Are we expected to believe that God wants us to live like this, trapped inside our earthly bodies, not on earth but not in heaven? What kind of God are we serving?
This is exactly the reason my former philosophy instructor declined to participate in a hospital committee deciding how far the hospital should go in providing life support. Her concern was that the world might end (in the theological sense) and all good people go to heaven. The rest of us would go elsewhere, of course - with the possible exception of those in coma or whatever vegetative state might mean. She would simply not take the chance of being responsible for someone being left in limbo.
I just can't see how He would expect us to just hang out, not here, not there, not anywhere. Because if you are spiritual, you believe that the body is nothing but a vessel for your soul and if you are still alive, your soul is still in your body. So it's just hanging out, waiting for your earthly body to die. How wonderful is that?
Re: The Catholic Church and Terri Schiavo
Bella Dea wrote:1 - How can the church consider this natural means? She would die without it. She cannot eat by herself. They are so against any artificial means why choose this as "natural" ? For example, contraceptives are not accepted because they are unnatural.
The feeding tube is an artificial means of delivering a natural requisite for life. The pope makes clear that it's artificial.
Bella Dea wrote:2- Are we expected to believe that God wants us to live like this, trapped inside our earthly bodies, not on earth but not in heaven? What kind of God are we serving?
Does life have no value in and of itself?
Bella Dea wrote:3- If this is considered normal and natural, shouldn't a respirator or any other life maintaining device be considered natural and normal? Should allow people to just exist even if they are unable to communicate and interact in this world?
I would imagine that a respiratory falls under the same category as feeding tubes though I've heard some disagree.
Bella Dea wrote:4- So we are, in essence, asked to prolong the suffering of a family and a woman. How is this right? How can the church condone this suffering?
Prolong the suffering of a family? The family wants to keep her alive.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7276850/site/newsweek/
Yes, the family is suffering. I mean, they've adapted to having her like this but how hard do you think it is having a child in Terri's condition? My mother works with a woman who has a daughter who is not quite as bad as Terri but still unable to care for herself. It is a long, difficult life. And it is stressful. And painful. No one wants to see their child brought down like this.
On the flip side, I really can't imagine the pain and suffering her parents are experienceing right now.
Terry Schiavo and the Catholic Church
I was first of all sorry to hear that you are no longer a practicing Catholic. The Church respects all life as a gift from God. My children are a blessing as well as a responsibility. There have been times when they have been so sick that they were incapable of getting out of bed and feeding themselves. As parents, my wife and I took care of their needs. We brought food to them, gave them medicene, and made sure that they were comfortable. We did this because we love them and because it was our responsibility as parents to protect and care for our children. I cant imagine anybody having a theological conflict with this idea. We nursed them back to health and would do whatever necessary to comfort them. Terry Schiavo will die without her feeding tube. What manner of godless society have we become when we have the ability to save a life and we sit by and watch it die. And we're watching it on TV! Yes, it is natural means to feed your child when they cant feed themselves. Somebody at some time has done it for all of us. It is interesting that Terry is suffering her own personal passion during Holy Week. Just as Christ was abandoned by His own, she is abandoned by her husband. As His mother mourned and watched her Son die from the foot of the Cross, Terry's parents have to helplessly watch as the life of their daughter is slowly extinguished. As Catholics , we unite our sufferings with those of Christ for the conversion of sinners and for the intentions of His most Sacred Heart in this world. She has become a victim soul. She is an imitation of Christ. I pray that God will use her suffering to convert the hardened hearts of all those who think what is happening to her is a good and righteous act. Christ gave Peter the "Keys to the Kingdom" and told him that whatever the Church would bind on earth would be bound in Heaven. The Pope sits on the Chair of Peter. He is the Vicar of Christ on earth. When he speaks about these things, it is with much prayer and discernment. Millions of faithful Catholics look upon the teachings and writings of Pope John Paul II as the answer to those wristbands that read "WJJD". God bless Terry Schiavo and her family. May God have mercy on our country for allowing this horrible act to happen.
Thanks for your response Midwest. i really am looking for answers to why people believe what they believe regarding this whole tragic thing.
Although I agree with some of what you said, I personally can't imagine having to be in Terri's place. If she can't know now what is going on, she will in heaven and I would be very upset at my parents for making me remain when technically, I should be dead. But that is how I feel about everything. I have told my husband, if I am ever injured so badly that I cannot take care of myself and would die without artifical means, to let me die.
Bella, I agree with you about the artificial means. I'm just making a distinction between someone in a coma on a breathing tube ( artifical means) and someone who is reportedly aware of what's happening who can breathe on her own. Thanks for writing back. Have a Blessed Easter.
How many have had a friend or relative who has had a long and painful illness and finally succumbs have thought or said thank God the suffering is over?
I can't understand what drives her parents desire to want to have their daughter exist in her condition. Where is the quality of life?
As to the Popes stance. NO comment!
Yes, of course we all say "thank God the suffering is over". But the spiritually minded person trusts in Divine Providence and accepts the sufferings that are allowed as part of the journey and plan for their lives. Nobody LIKES to suffer. Jesus Christ promised us the "abundance of life". Part of that abundance is the trials and hardships along with everything running smoothly. Who has the authority to say " grandma has suffered enough. Stop feeding her and put her out of her misery." If you follow this logic, the next step is " why should my loved one suffer starvation? Just administer the lethal injection and get it over with." When we take the will of God out of the equation, we head down a path of error and deception that can only lead us to death and misery.
Midwest GP
The will of God as you term it is that Terri should die. If not why is she in such a condition. The feeding tube is the will of people to thwart or delay the will of God. She would have died 15 years ago if nature was allowed to run it's course.
I heard the Catholic position is that you can allow someone to die by not taking these artificial means. However, once started they may not be stopped. Religion mans answer to logic and sanity.
au1929: I dont want to turn this into a perpetual argument. But I believe what is written below. This is America. You can choose to believe whatever you want to. I was just trying to shed some light on the idea of what the pope says and what the Catholic Church teaches. Too many people misinterpret and misquote both of these. I copied what follows from an article I read on Newsmax:
The pope distinguished between directly intended mercy killing and the morally allowable halting of "aggressive medical treatment" that is "disproportionate to any expected results" and prolongs life "when death is clearly imminent and inevitable."
On Thursday, Cardinal William Keeler of Baltimore, chairman of the U.S. bishops' pro-life committee, said Schiavo is suffering death by starvation when "she needs only basic care and assistance in obtaining food and water."
Also Thursday, Chicago's Cardinal George said Schiavo's case doesn't involve "letting a terminally ill woman die a natural death" but "ending the life of a person with a significant disability prematurely."
Midwest GP wrote
Quote:The pope distinguished between directly intended mercy killing and the morally allowable halting of "aggressive medical treatment" that is "disproportionate to any expected results" and prolongs life "when death is clearly imminent and inevitable."
Where in your opinion or do you think the Popes statement does the Schiavo case fall. Is the aggressive treatment disproportionate to any expected results?
IMO keeping someone alive in "suspended animation" without any chance of recovery is a disproportionate result.
As for my statement concerning the cutting off of life maintaining treatments. It was expressed by one of American's Arch Bishops.
I have asked this before and have never gotten a satisfactory answer. Why, or is it acceptable based upon the Popes pronouncement for an individual to pre sanction his own mercy killing through a living will. It would seem to be a violation of the Popes dictim.