Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

Well, the pillow over the mouth method is illegal; I don't believe doctors are allowed to artificially induce death upon a patient under any circumstances whatsoever (see: kevorkian).

From a moral standpoint, there's not even a question at all, as TS died a long time ago. As long as the body is treated with the respect commonly and normally given to dead bodies, the manner of disposal is of no consequence.

And I agree with CI; people who don't have the capability to communicate at all, who have lost the portion of their brain that allows cognition, whose brain has literally atrophied and wasted away in their own head, are simply not comprable to those with developmental disorders whatsoever. It is a false analogy to suggest that there is some sort of slippery slope in action here....

The fact is that people in the exact same condition as TS are let go in this exact manner all the time; it's only the media attention that has gotten people's panties in a bunch about it.

Cycloptichorn

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So from a moral standpoint, you feel no hesitancy about pushing her mother out of the way as Terri is smiling up at her, and going to town with your pillow.

You still want to lecture me about moral failings?

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D writes

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Generous doses of morphine would have been quite acceptable, I'm sure. And effective, too...

Effective yes. And, though more humane, also unconscionable. I do not want doctors to be in the business of deciding who is worthy to live and who isn't worth anything anymore. As long as Terri Schiavo even might possibly be alive at any level, who is to say her life has no value? I can understand Michael Schiavo not wanting to devote the rest of his life to her care. He simply didn't love her enough for that I think. And I can understand the Schindlers being willing to devote the rest of their lives to her care. I would do the same for my daughter because I love her enough to do that.

If we do not defend and protect the most helpless of those among us, if we think it is okay to just snuff them out. then none of us can ever really feel like we are fully in control again. Should I be able to decide if I will live or die. I can think of circumstances in which I would want that right. But I do not want our doctors to ever be in the position of being ordered to kill somebody who may or may not choose to die at that particular time.
I want to know that my doctor is committed to healing and saving lives and is not being conditioned to taking them. If we err, let's err on the side of life.

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Lola wrote:

I hve to stop reading this thread. I just can't take it anymore.

I'm on to something else.

Indeed. The same arguments over and over. This thread may go on longer than Ms. Schiavo's hospice stay...

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Terri Schiavo did not have anything close to what we consider "value of life." Her brain damage was too severe and irreversible.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Geli writes

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She died bercause her physical condition was insufficent.
The judges order said to remove the feeding tube as feeding tube have been ruled as 'artificial life support'. Her wishes were not to be kept alive by artificial means. If she were able to take food and water orally she would be alive today.

The very same thing happens every day all across the World.

It's called 'mercy'. If you prefer killing then so be it but it will remain 'mercy' to those that are released from a prison of flesh.

I do hear what you're saying. But where do you draw the line? The profoundly retarded who must be fed? The quadriplegic? Stephen Hawkings? The comatose? Just this week I was talking with a woman who had been comatose for more than five years and then awoke and now, with a few residual symptoms, she is fine.

If Terri's killing had been truly merciful, what would it have hurt to have attempted to give her spoonfuls of water or thin pudding by mouth. According to caregivers, Michael Schiavo had forbidden any attempt to do that for a long time. Doctors have testified that she could swallow her own saliva.

And on that same score, if you view hydration and nutrition as no different from artifically keeping a heart beating or breathing with assistance from a respirator, why make her die of hydration? She could have been suffocated in minutes with a pillow--quick, clean, little or no suffering. Would that be okay for you who view killing Terri Schiavo as a mercy killing?

I finally got a grip on your problem ... you have a problem that is common to right wingers, it's generally refered to as the 'I said it so it has to be true' syndrom'. The only known cure is to become informed. It's not easy, first you have to give up Fox tv .... Don't be afraid, when you feel your head start to fill with knowledge and realize you can think on your own and never have to follow the party line ever again, you'll be filled with joy. New and exciting thoughts are just ahead. You truly are the luckiest girl on the block.

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So from a moral standpoint, you feel no hesitancy about pushing her mother out of the way as Terri is smiling up at her, and going to town with your pillow.

You still want to lecture me about moral failings?

This is a false argument. Take your crappy straw men elsewhere, lol...

There IS no Terri to smile up at her mother. She doesn't smile. She doesn't look. There is no her. The part of her brain that made her HER is gone. This is the part that you seem to be unwilling to admit, Tico.

This isn't even my opinion, it's a medical fact that the areas of her brain in question simply do not exist. Unless you can recognize this fact, you cannot have a coherent argument about this case.

And yes, I'll lecture you on your moral failings as long as you keep displaying them. Do you need me to start lecturing you on argumentative structure as well, or can you do better than the straw man you just posted?

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Tico wrote:
So from a moral standpoint, you feel no hesitancy about pushing her mother out of the way as Terri is smiling up at her, and going to town with your pillow.

...

There IS no Terri to smile up at her mother. She doesn't smile. She doesn't look. There is no her. The part of her brain that made her HER is gone. This is the part that you seem to be unwilling to admit, Tico.

.....

Cycloptichorn

Is that a "no"?

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Ticomaya wrote:

So from a moral standpoint, you feel no hesitancy about pushing her mother out of the way as Terri is smiling up at her, and going to town with your pillow.

You still want to lecture me about moral failings?

Interesting question. If it were someone you loved and they were never going to be human again .... and you knew that to be true, how would you do them?

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Have a nice day, Tico. If you're going to continue to be so obtuse, and rely on straw men to make your argument, then there's really no point in continuing.

Cheers tho

Cycloptichorn

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So you won't answer the question Geli? You can't answer it so you resort back to insult instead of civil discourse?

Air is different from hydration or nutrition so far as being a life sustaining necessity or it isn't. If you can withhold nutrition and hydration, why not air which would be so much more humane?

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Ticomaya wrote:

So from a moral standpoint, you feel no hesitancy about pushing her mother out of the way as Terri is smiling up at her, and going to town with your pillow.

You still want to lecture me about moral failings?

Perhaps you need a lecture on science, Tico. Smiling? There was nothing in the brain to cause such an affectation.

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Foxfyre wrote:

So you won't answer the question Geli? You can't answer it so you resort back to insult instead of civil discourse?

Air is different from hydration or nutrition so far as being a life sustaining necessity or it isn't. If you can withhold nutrition and hydration, why not air which would be so much more humane?

Insult .... insult!!!! I try to help and you call it INSULT!!!
Your questions are insults. Why don't you read what you write if you won't read others.

You truly beleive that it would less painful ..... to die of suffocation ... struggling and gasping for breath than to slip into a coma from lack of nutrition.

Why do I try????

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"civil discourse" what a hoot!

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Gelisgesti wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
So you won't answer the question Geli? You can't answer it so you resort back to insult instead of civil discourse?

Air is different from hydration or nutrition so far as being a life sustaining necessity or it isn't. If you can withhold nutrition and hydration, why not air which would be so much more humane?

Insult .... insult!!!! I try to help and you call it INSULT!!!
Your questions are insults. Why don't you read what you write if you won't read others.

You truly beleive that it would less painful ..... to die of suffocation ... struggling and gasping for breath than to slip into a coma from lack of nutrition.

Why do I try????

I missed something ... what would be struggling and gasping for breath? The shell?

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Yes. I thought she was 'unaware' of anything according to the 'kill Terri' club.

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Foxfyre wrote:

So no, I would not agree for a person who might even possibly be conscious or capable of feeling die a death like Terri Schiavo died, nor would any sane person chose such a death.

Then you would be wrong.

People (conscious, sane people), every day, stop eating and drinking, and pass away peacefully. They do it in hospitals, they do it in hospices, they do it at home.

I find it abhorrent that you would force these people to ingest water and draw out their suffering for weeks or months while they starved to death. Or would you force feed them as well? I find it abhorrent that you would force them to live in a situation that they find unbearable.

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Previously linked

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In his book Forced Exit (Times Books), Wesley quotes neurologist William Burke: "A conscious person would feel it [dehydration] just as you and I would. . . . Their skin cracks, their tongue cracks, their lips crack. They may have nosebleeds because of the drying of the mucous membranes, and heaving and vomiting might ensue because of the drying out of the stomach lining.

"They feel the pangs of hunger and thirst. Imagine going one day without a glass of water! . . . It is an extremely agonizing death."

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Not only that, Foxy, but many sane people every day of the year put a dynamite stick in their mouths and blow themselves to kingdom come very peacefully. It's actually a very beautiful form of death. I find it abhorrent that you would stop these people from blowing their heads to the consistency of apple sauce. For shame.

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The effects of dehydration do not change the fact that many people choose to refuse nutrition and water.

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Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

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