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Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:33 pm
Tom DeLay doesn't understand what "separation of powers" is all about.
***********************

Anger growing over Schiavo death

Terri Schiavo collapsed in 1990
A political row has broken out in the US after the death of Terri Schiavo, the brain-damaged woman at the heart of a long-running legal dispute.
Senior Republican Tom DeLay, who leads the House of Representatives, attacked the US courts for allowing Mrs Schiavo to die, calling them "out of control".

Mrs Schiavo, 41, died in Florida on Thursday, 13 days after a feeding tube keeping her alive was disconnected.

Her husband had fought for the tube's removal, saying it was what she wanted.

Mr DeLay promised continued support for Mrs Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who led the campaign to keep their daughter alive.

They disagreed with the verdict of court-appointed doctors, who said she was in an irreversible persistent vegetative state.

Divided country

"We promised the Schindler family that we will not let Terri die in vain," Mr DeLay said.

"We will look at an arrogant, out-of-control, unaccountable judiciary that thumbed their nose at Congress and the president."

TERRI SCHIAVO CASE
Feb 1990: Terri Schiavo collapses
May 1998: Mr Schiavo files petition to remove feeding tube
Oct 2003: Florida lower house passes "Terri's Law", allowing governor to order doctors to feed Mrs Schiavo
Sept 2004: Florida Supreme Court strikes down law
18 Mar 2005: Florida court allows removal of tube
22 Mar 2005: Federal judge rejects appeal
23 Mar 2005: Appeals court backs federal ruling
29 Mar 2005: Federal court grants parents leave to appeal
30 Mar 2005: Federal court and Supreme Court reject parents' appeal
31 Mar 2005: Terri Schiavo dies


Q&A: Terri Schiavo case
During a seven-year legal battle, state and federal judges consistently ruled against the Schindler family's attempts to prolong Terri Schiavo's life.

The US Supreme Court refused to hear their petitions, despite Congress passing emergency legislation and the support of President George W Bush.

Opinion polls have consistently shown a majority of Americans believed it was right to allow Mrs Schiavo to die.

Speaking after her death, Mr Bush said the strong have a duty to protect the weak.

"In cases where there are serious doubts and questions, the presumption should be in the favour of life," he said.

'For Terri'

Michael Schiavo's overriding concern was to give his wife "a peaceful death with dignity", his lawyer George Felos said on Thursday.

Mr Schiavo was by his wife's side when she died.

Her parents were not at the hospice, and her brother said he was barred from her room shortly before the end.

"This death was not for the siblings, and not for the spouse and not for the parents. This was for Terri," Mr Felos said.

An autopsy is planned and is expected to show the extent of brain injuries sustained when Mrs Schiavo collapsed after her heart stopped beating temporarily in 1990.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:35 pm
Drewdad writes
Quote:
You can't get by using the technical definition of hearsay while ignoring the technical definition of evidence.


I don't think anyone is excluding hearsay evidence in this case; the discussion is only on what is hearsay and also on the technical aspects of application of exceptions to the hearsay rule. As Tico pointed out, the Judge did not refer to an 'exception' in his opinion; however, it cannot be concluded that an exception to the rule was not in his mind when he wrote his decision.

(Even as I write this I know I can be skewered any minute by the legal eagles in the group whose legal training is far superior to mine. Smile)

It all comes down to the criteria the Judge used in making his decision. The more I look at it and think about it, the more I believe Terri Schiavo was sentenced to death as a result of a judge who in my opinion used the wrong criteria to make that decision, and possibly due to faulty lawyering that failed to incorporate all the evidence that would have better supported Terri's right to life. Did Judge Greer have the legal power to make the ruling he did? Apparently so based on the review of several different courts since that time. Did he make the correct ruling. No. I don't believe he did.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:40 pm
DrewDad wrote:
I can't see that it matters much if the technical description of the evidence is that it was hearsay.

It was admitted, was it not? All of the appeals did not reveal that it was admitted incorrectly. It is evidence.

Some here are contending that judge Greer acted wrongly in admitting it, and that all courts that got involved later acted wrongly in letting Greer's decision stand. For those of us who choose to attack or defend this contention, knowing the hearsay rules matters in deciding whether the courts broke them or not. When attacking or defending something, it is always nice to know what one is talking about.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:48 pm
While some are critising the judges (and espeically judge Greer's decission) quite emotionally, the Majority Leader emanwhile even threatened (federal) judges:

Quote:
Mrs. Schiavo's death is a moral poverty and a legal tragedy. This loss happened because our legal system did not protect the people who need protection most, and that will change. The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior, but not today.
Source

The least to say is that this isn't very sensitive only a few weeks after a federal judge's relatives were murdered in Chicago and a Georgia state judge was shot in an Atlanta courthouse.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:51 pm
I don't question the admission of hearsay evidence because even I know exceptions can be necessary when the subject is incapable of cross examination. I do question the weight given to the hearsay evidence in light of the absolute evidence available that accompanied it; i.e. Michael Schiavo stood to benefit monetarily from a decision in his favor; the Schindlers stood to benefit much less so. Therefore, I don't think sufficient weight was given to motive.

Was Judge Greer's ruling legal? The other courts (who did not review the evidence but ruled only on the criteria used for the ruling) say yes. But I think we can all agree that just because something is legal does not necessarily make it right.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:00 pm
Walter,


Quote:
DeLay The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior, but not today.


I thought Goebbels said something similar...or it might have been Hitler after Krystalnacht
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:03 pm
Here are some relevant Florida statutes ....

Quote:
765.101 Definitions.--As used in this chapter:

(1) "Advance directive" means a witnessed written document or oral statement in which instructions are given by a principal or in which the principal's desires are expressed concerning any aspect of the principal's health care, and includes, but is not limited to, the designation of a health care surrogate, a living will, or an anatomical gift made pursuant to part X of chapter 732.

.....

(11) "Living will" or "declaration" means:

(a) A witnessed document in writing, voluntarily executed by the principal in accordance with s. 765.302; or

(b) A witnessed oral statement made by the principal expressing the principal's instructions concerning life-prolonging procedures.

(12) "Persistent vegetative state" means a permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is:

(a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of any kind.

(b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment.


Quote:
765.302 Procedure for making a living will; notice to physician.--

(1) Any competent adult may, at any time, make a living will or written declaration and direct the providing, withholding, or withdrawal of life-prolonging procedures in the event that such person has a terminal condition, has an end-stage condition, or is in a persistent vegetative state. A living will must be signed by the principal in the presence of two subscribing witnesses, one of whom is neither a spouse nor a blood relative of the principal. If the principal is physically unable to sign the living will, one of the witnesses must subscribe the principal's signature in the principal's presence and at the principal's direction.

(2) It is the responsibility of the principal to provide for notification to her or his attending or treating physician that the living will has been made. In the event the principal is physically or mentally incapacitated at the time the principal is admitted to a health care facility, any other person may notify the physician or health care facility of the existence of the living will. An attending or treating physician or health care facility which is so notified shall promptly make the living will or a copy thereof a part of the principal's medical records.

(3) A living will, executed pursuant to this section, establishes a rebuttable presumption of clear and convincing evidence of the principal's wishes.


Quote:
765.304 Procedure for living will.--

(1) If a person has made a living will expressing his or her desires concerning life-prolonging procedures, but has not designated a surrogate to execute his or her wishes concerning life-prolonging procedures or designated a surrogate under part II, the attending physician may proceed as directed by the principal in the living will. In the event of a dispute or disagreement concerning the attending physician's decision to withhold or withdraw life-prolonging procedures, the attending physician shall not withhold or withdraw life-prolonging procedures pending review under s. 765.105. If a review of a disputed decision is not sought within 7 days following the attending physician's decision to withhold or withdraw life-prolonging procedures, the attending physician may proceed in accordance with the principal's instructions.

(2) Before proceeding in accordance with the principal's living will, it must be determined that:

(a) The principal does not have a reasonable medical probability of recovering capacity so that the right could be exercised directly by the principal.

(b) The principal has a terminal condition, has an end-stage condition, or is in a persistent vegetative state.

(c) Any limitations or conditions expressed orally or in a written declaration have been carefully considered and satisfied.



Quote:
765.305 Procedure in absence of a living will.--

(1) In the absence of a living will, the decision to withhold or withdraw life-prolonging procedures from a patient may be made by a health care surrogate designated by the patient pursuant to part II unless the designation limits the surrogate's authority to consent to the withholding or withdrawal of life-prolonging procedures.

(2) Before exercising the incompetent patient's right to forego treatment, the surrogate must be satisfied that:

(a) The patient does not have a reasonable medical probability of recovering capacity so that the right could be exercised by the patient.

(b) The patient has an end-stage condition, the patient is in a persistent vegetative state, or the patient's physical condition is terminal.


Quote:
765.306 Determination of patient condition.--In determining whether the patient has a terminal condition, has an end-stage condition, or is in a persistent vegetative state or may recover capacity, or whether a medical condition or limitation referred to in an advance directive exists, the patient's attending or treating physician and at least one other consulting physician must separately examine the patient. The findings of each such examination must be documented in the patient's medical record and signed by each examining physician before life-prolonging procedures may be withheld or withdrawn.


Quote:
765.309 Mercy killing or euthanasia not authorized; suicide distinguished.--

(1) Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to condone, authorize, or approve mercy killing or euthanasia, or to permit any affirmative or deliberate act or omission to end life other than to permit the natural process of dying.

(2) The withholding or withdrawal of life-prolonging procedures from a patient in accordance with any provision of this chapter does not, for any purpose, constitute a suicide.


Quote:
765.401 The proxy.--

(1) If an incapacitated or developmentally disabled patient has not executed an advance directive, or designated a surrogate to execute an advance directive, or the designated or alternate surrogate is no longer available to make health care decisions, health care decisions may be made for the patient by any of the following individuals, in the following order of priority, if no individual in a prior class is reasonably available, willing, or competent to act:

(a) The judicially appointed guardian of the patient or the guardian advocate of the person having a developmental disability as defined in s. 393.063, who has been authorized to consent to medical treatment, if such guardian has previously been appointed; however, this paragraph shall not be construed to require such appointment before a treatment decision can be made under this subsection;

(b) The patient's spouse;

(c) An adult child of the patient, or if the patient has more than one adult child, a majority of the adult children who are reasonably available for consultation;

(d) A parent of the patient;


.....



Quote:
765.404 Persistent vegetative state.--For persons in a persistent vegetative state, as determined by the attending physician in accordance with currently accepted medical standards, who have no advance directive and for whom there is no evidence indicating what the person would have wanted under such conditions, and for whom, after a reasonably diligent inquiry, no family or friends are available or willing to serve as a proxy to make health care decisions for them, life-prolonging procedures may be withheld or withdrawn under the following conditions:

(1) The person has a judicially appointed guardian representing his or her best interest with authority to consent to medical treatment; and

(2) The guardian and the person's attending physician, in consultation with the medical ethics committee of the facility where the patient is located, conclude that the condition is permanent and that there is no reasonable medical probability for recovery and that withholding or withdrawing life-prolonging procedures is in the best interest of the patient. If there is no medical ethics committee at the facility, the facility must have an arrangement with the medical ethics committee of another facility or with a community-based ethics committee approved by the Florida Bio-ethics Network. The ethics committee shall review the case with the guardian, in consultation with the person's attending physician, to determine whether the condition is permanent and there is no reasonable medical probability for recovery. The individual committee members and the facility associated with an ethics committee shall not be held liable in any civil action related to the performance of any duties required in this subsection.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:04 pm
Walter writes
Quote:
The least to say is that this isn't very sensitive only a few weeks after a federal judge's relatives were murdered in Chicago and a Georgia state judge was shot in an Atlanta courthouse.


Walter, this is very uncharacteristic of you. What possible connection is there between the Chicago and Georgia incidents and the Terri Schiavo case? Shall we never criticize anybody for anything out of sensitivity for all who suffer tragedy or misfortune who are in that person's profession or of that person's race or that person's gender or whatever?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:08 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
While some are critising the judges (and espeically judge Greer's decission) quite emotionally, the Majority Leader emanwhile even threatened (federal) judges:

Quote:
Mrs. Schiavo's death is a moral poverty and a legal tragedy. This loss happened because our legal system did not protect the people who need protection most, and that will change. The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior, but not today.
Source

The least to say is that this isn't very sensitive only a few weeks after a federal judge's relatives were murdered in Chicago and a Georgia state judge was shot in an Atlanta courthouse.


Are you suggesting he is advocating violence towards the judiciary?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:13 pm
Not suggesting - asking.

Like e.g.:

http://rawstory.com/images/other/lautenbergdelay.gif
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:17 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Quote:
You can't get by using the technical definition of hearsay while ignoring the technical definition of evidence


I haven't a clue what you meant by that. "Hearsay" testimony IS evidence.

That's my point.

Debra, and others, have stated that "hearsay" determined the outcome of case. The implication, as I read it, is that this "hearsay" is inferior or invalid evidence.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:17 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Walter, this is very uncharacteristic of you.


I doubt such.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:18 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Are you suggesting he is advocating violence towards the judiciary?


Violence ,intimidation. Your pick

DeLay is an embarassment to Congress, The Republican party and finally, to the American people.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:26 pm
panzade, It makes me wonder more in Congress are not speaking out against DeLay.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:34 pm
There's hardly a Democrat worth a plugged nickel left in the Senate. They're all so spineless nowadays.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:47 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Quote:
You can't get by using the technical definition of hearsay while ignoring the technical definition of evidence


I haven't a clue what you meant by that. "Hearsay" testimony IS evidence.

That's my point.

Debra, and others, have stated that "hearsay" determined the outcome of case. The implication, as I read it, is that this "hearsay" is inferior or invalid evidence.


"Others" including myself.

Yes, you can consider Hearsay evidence to be inferior evidence, and that is the reason the general rule is to exclude hearsay evidence. By definition, all out-of-court statements fall into the hearsay category and are inadmissible if the statement goes to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement. Thus, the "Hearsay Rule" is the general rule that hearsay evidence is to be excluded, unless the statement falls clearly within one or more of the statutory exceptions to the rule.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:48 pm
Well, I hope you wrote to Tom Delay, I did this morning. I informed him that his idea that the legislative branch could dictate the jurisdiction of a case to a sitting Judge was not only unconstitutional. but also UnAmerican. Thank you very much but I don't believe we need our politicians to do more than to attempt to write the law, exposing as much as possible the legislature's intent, after that we have the courts to determine justice. It's a system we seem intent on exporting to various countries around the world, maybe we should abide by it whilst they try it out so they don't lose out on the genius of the idea.

Joe(God, I love it when bullies are made to cry)Nation
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 03:07 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Here are some relevant Florida statutes ....

Now we're talking! Smile One relevant statute you have forgotten is this:

Quote:
765.401 The proxy.--

(1) If an incapacitated or developmentally disabled patient has not executed an advance directive, or designated a surrogate to execute an advance directive, or the designated or alternate surrogate is no longer available to make health care decisions, health care decisions may be made for the patient by any of the following individuals, in the following order of priority, if no individual in a prior class is reasonably available, willing, or competent to act:

(a) The judicially appointed guardian of the patient or the guardian advocate of the person having a developmental disability as defined in s. 393.063, who has been authorized to consent to medical treatment, if such guardian has previously been appointed; however, this paragraph shall not be construed to require such appointment before a treatment decision can be made under this subsection;

(b) The patient's spouse;

(c) An adult child of the patient, or if the patient has more than one adult child, a majority of the adult children who are reasonably available for consultation;

(d) A parent of the patient;

[(e)-(h) and (2) omitted -- they don't apply to this case, T. ]

(3) Before exercising the incapacitated patient's rights to select or decline health care, the proxy must comply with the provisions of ss. 765.205 and 765.305, except that a proxy's decision to withhold or withdraw life-prolonging procedures must be supported by clear and convincing evidence that the decision would have been the one the patient would have chosen had the patient been competent or, if there is no indication of what the patient would have chosen, that the decision is in the patient's best interest.

This establishes that assuming that Terri Schiavo's remarks to her husband were clear and convincing evidence, and given that Terri Schiavo had no judicially appointed guardian at the time of the judgment, Michael Schiavo had the right to decide that life-prolonging prodedures be withheld, and the Schindlers did not. Judge Greer found that the Schiavos' three testimonies, taken together, were clear and convincing evidence.

Of course, this raises the question again whether Debra's "hearsay" attack can be sustained. The statute here is long, and I won't post all of it. I'll start by posting what appears to be the strongest case for a hearsay exception, and move on to the weaker ones when this one is refuted.

Quote:
90.804 Hearsay exceptions; declarant unavailable.--

(1) DEFINITION OF UNAVAILABILITY
[Omitted for brevity: nobody can deny that Terri Schiavo was unavailable for testimony, T.]

(2) HEARSAY EXCEPTIONS.--The following are not excluded under s. 90.802, provided that the declarant is unavailable as a witness:

[(a) and (b) omitted for brevity, T.]

(c) Statement against interest.--A statement which, at the time of its making, was so far contrary to the declarant's pecuniary or proprietary interest or tended to subject the declarant to liability or to render invalid a claim by the declarant against another, so that a person in the declarant's position would not have made the statement unless he or she believed it to be true. A statement tending to expose the declarant to criminal liability and offered to exculpate the accused is inadmissible, unless corroborating circumstances show the trustworthiness of the statement.
[(d) omitted for brevity, T.]

In my opinion, there is a strong argument for a "statement against interest" exception here. Unless Terri Schiavo believed it true that she wanted life support discontinued, by stating that she did she would have exposed herself to murder. The judge was satisfied that she did make this statement to each of the three Schiavos, hence she did believe it to be true. Needless to say, I will be happy to be corrected by people who offer better sources than I did.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 03:44 pm
Thomas writes
Quote:
In my opinion, there is a strong argument for a "statement against interest" exception here. Unless Terri Schiavo believed it true that she wanted life support discontinued, by stating that she did she would have exposed herself to murder.


I presume you mean 'unless Michael Schiavo' believed it true. . . ' The fallacy of this argument would be there is no way for anyone to prove that Terri did not say that to Michael Schiavo; therefore he was at no risk and his statement was therefore not 'against interest' but, if he wanted her killed for monetary or other personal motives, there would be no evidence to accuse, much less indict him.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 04:06 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Atookalan writes
Quote:
In my opinion, there is a strong argument for a "statement against interest" exception here. Unless Terri Schiavo believed it true that she wanted life support discontinued, by stating that she did she would have exposed herself to murder.


I presume you mean 'unless Michael Schiavo' believed it true. . . '

No, I did mean Terri. I was going with Debra's definition that Terri is the declarant. Unlike my original definition, Debra's is consistent with that of the Florida statute. (Not that assuming this helps me -- if the Schindlers and the Schiavos are the declarents it's not hearsay because their statements were made in court, under oath.)

Quote:
90.801 Hearsay; definitions; exceptions.--

(1) The following definitions apply under this chapter:

(a) A "statement" is:

1. An oral or written assertion; or

2. Nonverbal conduct of a person if it is intended by the person as an assertion.

(b) A "declarant" is a person who makes a statement.

(c) "Hearsay" is a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted.

Under this set of definitions, Terri is indeed the declarant. It is her whose interest the statement has to be against, unless she thought the statement was true, in order to trigger the "statement against interest" exception.
0 Replies
 
 

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