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Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

 
 
sozobe
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 09:44 am
If I've thanked Parados I've gotta thank Thomas and nimh for their thoughtful and thorough research and sharing thereof. Thanks, guys.
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panzade
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 10:05 am
I'd be remiss in not thanking Debra Law, for every good thread on A2K , there is always a catalyst.
And Phoenix for foreseeing that this subject would consume us for 150 pages.
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Foxfyre
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 10:16 am
I will thank Thomas, Debra, (and Parados) as well for a most thorough and scholarly analysis of the court ruling and decision, but I still side with Debra (and me) on the fundamental conclusions of justice contained within the legal ruling.

The issue of 'monetary gains' creating a conflict of interest on both sides simply doesn't wash when you consider the intent of the parties. Michael, by ordering Terri's death, keeps for himself any part of her estate that may exist. Her parents, who have never wanted anything other than for her to live, would have the expense of caring for her. I can't find anything in the opinions written that factors in that fact.

In a civil trial, the testimony of close relatives (spouse, siblings, parent) of a party is going to automatically be seen as having potential to be slanted in favor of a loved one. And for me, there is still the issue of whether a feeding tube providing nothing more than nutrition and hydration can be considered a 'machine'. To conclude that Terri would have chosen to die the way she did is a huge stretch in my mind no matter what the law has concluded in this matter.

If Terri was as 'dead' as some seem to believe, then what harm is there in allowing her body to live as a comfort for those who apparently most loved her? If she was gone and only a body remained, it certainly was not harming her. And if she was alive, which so many closest to her believed she was, then in my mind, the basis on which she was ordered killed was not sufficient to order her death.

For me the issue is not what I would want for myself. The issue is making the choice for another human being without clear and certain knowledge of that person's wishes.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 10:16 am
Well then I've gotta thank panzade for so often being the gracious voice of reason.

This could take a while. :-D
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panzade
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 10:25 am
Well...I have a confession to make.
Back about ...oh say a hundred pages or so I posted a scolding of debra where I opined that she was too close to the law to see the implications of the Schiavo case.
I have regretted it ever since. It was especially painful because she graciously chose not to attack me for my lack of explanation.
I've come to the conclusion that the impassioned testimony of those I disagree with on this thread bodes well for our forum and our Republic.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 10:38 am
I agree with panzade; I still admire people like Debra who have kept the topic on target without any recrimination. She has my admiration and respect.
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Ticomaya
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 11:27 am
Thomas wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
Michael's brother testified concerning Terri's statements. Terri is the declarant. Terri's alleged out-of-court statements were offered into evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. This is hearsay.

I disagree. "The truth of the matter asserted" concerns what wishes Terri Schiavo has expressed. The declarants are the Schindlers and the Schiavos, all of whom claimed to have first-hand knowledge of what wishes she had expressed. All of them testified in court, under oath.


You might disagree, but you are not correct. Both the Schiavos' and the Schindlers' testimony about what Terri said out of court concerning her desires to be or not be sustained on life-support, is clearly hearsay. The intention of offering the testimony is to prove that the prior statement of Terri is true, that she in fact did, or did not, wish to be sustained on life-support. The fact that they provided this hearsay evidence under oath does not render it not hearsay. Since it is hearsay, there must be an exception in order to admit it.


Quote:
UPDATE: I just checked another source by searching for "hearsay" in Findlaw's legal dictionary. Up came three entries: "hearsay", "hearsay rule", and "evidence". The "evidence" entry, as far as it pertains to hearsay, merely repeats the "hearsay" entry. Here are the definitions given in the two other entries:

Webster's legal dictionary, as published on Findlaw's website, wrote:
hearsay: a statement made out of court and not under oath which is offered as proof that what is stated is true.

Comment: By this definition, the Schindlers and the Schiavo's testimony was not hearsay with regard to what Terri Schiavo said. But since they couldn't read Terri's mind, Debra might argue that their testimonies were hearsay with regard to what was going on inside Terri Schiavo's mind.


No ... it is hearsay. The statement made out of court is Terri's. The statement is offered to prove what Terri said was true. The Schiavos testified Terri said she would not want to live with life-support. The purpose of offering that out of court statement by Terri is to prove that, in fact, Terri would not want to live with life-support. It's not a question of "reading minds"; the rule deals with excluding the out-of-court statement.

Quote:
Note, however, the next entry:

Webster's legal dictionary, as published on Findlaw's website, wrote:
hearsay rule: a rule barring the admission of hearsay as evidence

Note: The hearsay rule is stated in Rule 802 of the Federal Rules of Evidence. Hearsay is inadmissible as evidence because of the unavailability of cross-examination to test the accuracy of the statement. There are numerous exceptions to the rule, however, mainly for statements made under circumstances that assure reliability. Statements made spontaneously, for example, or as part of a business or medical record are inherently trustworthy and thus excepted from the rule. A statement need not be made orally for purposes of the hearsay rule. Written statements, gestures, and even motion pictures are included. (the italics are Findlaw's/Webster's)

So even under Debra's theory, this case would have fallen under the "numerous exceptions". Terri Schiavo's statements in question were made spontaneously, which is explicitly mentioned as one of the "circumstances that assure reliability".


You are correct that there are many exceptions to the Hearsay Rule. A "contemporaneous statement" might be admitted if the statement is made while the principal event is occurring, but must be also made while the declarant is under the stress or excitement cause by such perception. This is often the case of someone witnessing a car accident. The declaration must be so clearly connected with the principal occurrence that it really forms a part of the occurrence. It's often referred to as the res gestae exception. Courts have considerable discretion in admitting statements under this exception. I've not heard that the court relied on this exception in admitting this hearsay evidence.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 12:16 pm
If I read the details of this case correctly, the judges had to side with Michael, because Michael's brother and sister-in-law also confirmed what Michael said. It was still hearsay, but the judges felt (I think) that their hearsay was stronger than the parent's arguments of Terri's wish to be kept alive.
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Thomas
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 12:22 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
You might disagree, but you are not correct.

This may well be. Can you give me a source to establish that you are correct I am not? Opinions are good, but evidence is better.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 12:42 pm
Thomas
Thomas, I posted a source for the facts and timeline in the Schiavo case without all the innuendo and spin. It includes all of the testimony, legal filings, and other factual information and court documents.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=48601&highlight=

BBB
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Foxfyre
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 12:47 pm
Here are the Ohio "Rules of Evidence" (the first I found) which are pretty typical in all states I think:

http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/Rules/evidence/#aviii

And here is a bit more user friendly discussion on evidence, most particularly hearsay evidence.

http://lawschool.westlaw.com/Garland/welcome.html

Tico is quite right, according to these discussions, that the evidence used to decide the case was 'hearsay'. And I don't find anything in Judge Greer's opinion, either, indicating an exception was incorporated though that could be concluded due to Terri's incapacity to testify for herself. It still comes down to the hearsay evidence presented by both sides, and that Judge Greer decided the side that wanted Terri dead was the most credible.

And it is that to which I object.
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Thomas
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:00 pm
Thanks, BBB! I actually had thought of sources on legal concepts such as "hearsay", but your timeline is certainly helpful. (Btw, I'm not blaming anyone. Sozobe's and Foxfyre's praise is flattering, but I'm perfectly aware that I, too, have offered too much opinion and to little substantiation in this thread.)
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Ticomaya
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:12 pm
Thomas wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
You might disagree, but you are not correct.

This may well be. Can you give me a source to establish that you are correct I am not? Opinions are good, but evidence is better.


Well, I explained the reasons you were incorrect in my prior post. Hearsay includes testimony (e.g., Michael Schiavo testifying in court) of an out-of-court statement (e.g., the statement made by Terri Schiavo about her desire to not have life-support) that is offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted (e.g., the purpose of offering Terri's out-of-court statement is to prove the truth of her out-of-court statement).

An example of an out-of-court statement that is offered NOT to prove the truth of the matter asserted would be the following: Witness testifies that Stranger told him "the gunshot came from the green house on the corner" ... if the purpose of the testimony is merely to show why Witness proceeded to the green house and knocked on the door, and not to prove that the gunshot, in fact, came from the green house. In such a case, the testimony of the out-of-court statement would not be hearsay, since it was not offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted.

Beyond that, you might study up on the Hearsay Rule. Foxy provided a good link.....
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Thomas
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:13 pm
Foxfyre -- I just found the federal hearsay rules, which Judge Greer had to apply in his decision. I haven't read them yet, but will soon.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:14 pm
Thomas wrote:
Foxfyre -- I just found the federal hearsay rules, which Judge Greer had to apply in his decision. I haven't read them yet, but will soon.


I'm relatively sure Judge Greer would have applied Florida evidentiary rules.
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Thomas
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:18 pm
You are correct, I was wrong. Greer was a Florida state judge, not a federal judge. I got confused with all the federal cases in recent weeks.
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DrewDad
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:23 pm
I can't see that it matters much if the technical description of the evidence is that it was hearsay.

It was admitted, was it not? All of the appeals did not reveal that it was admitted incorrectly. It is evidence.

You can't get by using the technical definition of hearsay while ignoring the technical definition of evidence.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:23 pm
Thomas, Thanks for sharing the "federal hearsay rules." I quickly read through it, and agree with the judge's decision. I'm sure others will disagree.
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Thomas
 
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Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:30 pm
Okay, the Florida hearsay rule can be found here. The page is large and user-hostile, but if you search for "hearsay", and continue hitting the "search" button often enough, you'll eventually get there.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:32 pm
DrewDad wrote:
I can't see that it matters much if the technical description of the evidence is that it was hearsay.

It was admitted, was it not? All of the appeals did not reveal that it was admitted incorrectly. It is evidence.


It was hearsay evidence that was admitted. I don't know why it was admitted .... I've not looked at any of the legal filings in this case, other than the opinion of Judge Greer, so I don't know if any of the appeals raised the issue of hearsay. It seems both sides provided hearsay evidence.

I'm not a Florida lawyer, and I've no idea whether there is a rule in Florida that specifically allows this type of testimony in this type of case. That seems to be the best explanation for why it was admitted.

Quote:
You can't get by using the technical definition of hearsay while ignoring the technical definition of evidence


I haven't a clue what you meant by that. "Hearsay" testimony IS evidence.
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