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Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 12:44 am
Lola wrote:
...My complaint isn't that poster cases are used, but rather that this poster case is an unconscionable use of a defenseless person and her husband and parents. These people need to greive their losses and face reality. What the pro-lifers and the media are doing is inhumane.

But the parents choice is to keep their child alive. Your argument is that they should be slapped across the face and told that their feelings are unenlightened. You really have to twist logic a lot to reach the position that the people who want to starve someone to death are the humane ones.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 12:47 am
Lola wrote:
...I hate to think that's the case, but I can think of no other reasonable reason for such persistence in the face of so much evidence.

Well, then I'll help you. How about respect for the sanctity of life, and the fact that both doctors and people close to her disagree as to whether she is aware of her existence? I have no political ambitions whatsoever, and wouldn't accept a political office if it were handed to me on a silver platter. I await your psychic reading of my base motive.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 01:29 am
Re: I'm not a conservative
Lola, referring to Debrah, wrote:
And I do not agree with you that this is not a liberal vs. conservative case. It is part of the New Right's agenda which Bush is obligated to fulfill.

I knew it! Debrah always looked kind of conservative to me behind her pro-gay-marriage, pro-choice facade ...

Lola wrote:
My complaint isn't that poster cases are used, but rather that this poster case is an unconscionable use of a defenseless person and her husband and parents. These people need to greive their losses and face reality. What the pro-lifers and the media are doing is inhumane.

I think Brandon is on to something on that one. If this defenseless person isn't worth defending against death anymore, why is she worth defending against politicians who made her a poster case? According to your own arguments, she isn't really around anymore to be bothered by either.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 02:25 am
So to answer the original question, it seems with such strong divided opinions like those presented on this thread it's inevitable and arguably correct that this case SHOULD have become a political football.

Perhaps some good will come of it all, such as clearer definitions of mental states or clearer laws regarding the patients wish to live.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 02:31 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
Eorl wrote:
You mean she was dying until they began force feeding her food and water.

I mean that she was not dying except in the restricted sense of being unable to feed herself. A baby is also unable to feed itself. Being unable to feed yourself is not normally classed as a terminal condition.


I think you'll agree that's not a good analogy Brandon. Babies can swallow before they are born while Terri never will, and babies almost certainly will feed themselves in the near future.

I suspect (though I have no figures) that babies routinely ARE born in Terri's condition, and are not force fed.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 02:54 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
The really proper way to have done this would have been for Congress to pass guidlines for euthanasia

Now there's an idea I'll subscribe to.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 02:59 am
Re: I'm not a conservative
Thomas wrote:
Lola wrote:
My complaint isn't that poster cases are used, but rather that this poster case is an unconscionable use of a defenseless person and her husband and parents. These people need to greive their losses and face reality. What the pro-lifers and the media are doing is inhumane.

I think Brandon is on to something on that one. If this defenseless person isn't worth defending against death anymore, why is she worth defending against politicians who made her a poster case? According to your own arguments, she isn't really around anymore to be bothered by either.

I think you missed the second half of Lola's sentence: "an unconscionable use of a defenseless person and her husband and parents."

I dont agree with the "and parents" part - they actively sought out being used as a poster case. But I also saw TV images of groups of conservative activists posting outside, if I am not mistaken, Michael's house, demonstratively praying on his doorstep. <shakes head>
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 03:04 am
sozobe wrote:
If neurologists, experts on the subject, who don't have a dog in the fight, say that it was random and meaningless -- why do you still think that? What do you base it on?

Neurologists are experts at examining brains; but they don't know how to read minds, especially not minds in a condition like Terri Schiavo's. When it comes to the inside of someone's mind, a doctors' or a scientist's guess is barely better than yours or mine. In fact, there has been a case where a whole branch of reputable scientists made confident claims about a related matter (whether animals have emotions). We now think these claims were utter nonsense compared to what your or my unsubstantiated guess would have been. For details, Google "behaviorism". I'm all for experts; I like to play one myself; but in this case, I doubt that your reference to them gets you as far as you think.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 03:07 am
Re: I'm not a conservative
nimh wrote:
I think you missed the second half of Lola's sentence: "an unconscionable use of a defenseless person and her husband and parents."

I didn't. I addressed the "and parents" part in an earlier post. And I don't see how they're using her husband -- apart from fiercefully opposing what he does.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 03:27 am
nimh wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
The really proper way to have done this would have been for Congress to pass guidlines for euthanasia

Now there's an idea I'll subscribe to.


Yep, count me in too
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 03:44 am
Eorl wrote:
nimh wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
The really proper way to have done this would have been for Congress to pass guidlines for euthanasia

Now there's an idea I'll subscribe to.


Yep, count me in too

Not me though. Euthanasia is a hard ethical problem. If this discussion has shown anything, it's that we don't know what the right answer is. Given that, I think it a good idea to have different states experiment with different rules; see if we like the outcomes or not, and maybe converge towards what turns out to work best. (On a tangent: the same argument applies to abortion, which is the reason I think retiring Roe vs. Wade would be a good idea, and why I wouldn't like the European Union to have guidelines on abortion (or the guidelines on euthanasia it already has.))
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 04:10 am
I don't think the right answer can ever be known, but the whole point of government is develop a practical workable system that can reasonably expected to provide the best outcomes for as many as possible and try to protect the basic rights of all. Surely that is worth working towards even with the tough questions?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:09 am
Yes Eorl. My point is that in this case, trial and error on the local and state level is the best shot we have at developing "a practical workable system that can reasonably be expected to provide the best outcomes." There's a general political point lurking behind this, but maybe that is best discussed in some other thread.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 06:26 am
I would like to stand up and applaud Judge Birch. I think that he really got to the heart of the matter. No matter how we feel about Terri personally, it has nothing to do with obeying the mandates of the Constitution, and the concept of separation of powers.

I particularly liked his statement about "activist judges". The conservative members of Congress have railed against judges who attempt to make, rather than follow the law. In this case, Birch noted, it was the Congress who assumed judicial powers that do not properly belong in their purview.



Quote:



Judge Assails Schiavo Law
By ELAINE SILVESTRINI [email protected]
Published: Apr 1, 2005

TAMPA - A federal appeals court judge strongly criticized Congress and President Bush on Wednesday, accusing them of overstepping their authority when they enacted an extraordinary law putting the fate of Terri Schiavo into the federal courts.

``In resolving the Schiavo controversy it is my judgment that, despite sincere and altruistic motivation, the legislative and executive branches of our government have acted in a manner demonstrably at odds with our Founding Fathers' blueprint for the governance of a free people - our Constitution,'' wrote Stanley F. Birch Jr., a judge on the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta. His opinion accompanied a ruling by the full court refusing to hear an appeal by Schiavo's parents, who want her feeding tube reinserted.

The court opinion crystalized the clash between branches of federal government that has emerged in the Schiavo case, underscoring the barrier the judiciary has refused to allow Congress to breach.

Judges ``must conscientiously guard the independence of our judiciary and safeguard the Constitution, even in the face of the unfathomable human tragedy that has befallen Mrs. Schiavo and her family and the recent events related to her plight which have troubled the consciences of many,'' Birch added.


Supreme Court Won't Hear Case

The Schindlers quickly appealed the appeals court ruling to the U.S. Supreme Court, which declined for the sixth time to intervene in the case late Wednesday. Justices did not explain their decision.

David Gibbs III, an attorney for the Schindlers, said the justices rejected ``what appears to be the last meaningful appeal'' he will file. He said he has no other legal actions on the table.

Gibbs learned of the ruling after visiting Terri Schiavo on Wednesday night. He said she was breathing a little more rapidly, but, ``She is demonstrating an amazing sparkle and desire to live.''

Schiavo has been in what many doctors have called a persistent vegetative state for 15 years. Her husband, Michael, successfully petitioned a state court to remove her feeding tube on the grounds that she would not have wanted to live that way. Her parents, who contend their daughter would not want to starve to death, have fought Michael Schiavo for seven years and have repeatedly lost in the courts.

Moved by the Schindlers' plight, Congress passed a law in the early morning hours of March 21, putting the case into the federal courts.

As Birch saw it, however, the law went too far by telling federal judges how they should go about deciding the case. Birch's strongly worded statements came in a concurring opinion that accompanied a ruling by the full, Atlanta- based appeals court. The court refused to hear the Schindlers' latest appeal under the new law.

The couple had asked the full court to hear their plea after a three-judge panel turned them away Friday. The activity marked the parties' second trek through the federal courts since the Schiavo law was passed.

In electing not to take the case en banc or by the full court, the 11th U.S. Circuit did not rule on its merits and did not overturn the new law. However, because the law addressed the Schiavo case specifically, it will become moot if Terri Schiavo dies.

Birch wrote, ``While the members of [the Schindler] family and the members of Congress have acted in a way that is both fervent and sincere, the time has come for dispassionate discharge of duty.''

Birch, who was appointed to the bench in 1990 by the former President Bush, suggested hubris on the part of Congress, accusing it of ``arrogating vital judicial functions to itself.''
Birch's actions surprised Richard Freer, a law professor at Emory University in Atlanta.

``I think it's unusual to have a concurring opinion from a denial of rehearing on en banc,'' said Freer, who has known Birch for about 12 years. ``Obviously, that means he feels very strongly about it and that that needed to be said.''

Freer said the public tends to react to the bottom line of court decisions, seeing them as either ``for Terri or against Terri.'' But he said it's important to be clear that judges have to be concerned with the Constitution.

Birch began his Schiavo opinion by observing that judges are often denounced by the public and members of Congress for being ``activist,'' accused of deciding cases based on personal feelings rather than the requirements of the law.

But in the Schiavo case, he said, it was members of Congress who disregarded the Constitution because of their personal beliefs. Parts of the Schiavo law, Birch wrote, violated ``the fundamental principles of separation of powers enshrined in our Constitution.''


Two 11th U.S. Circuit judges disagreed with Birch. Judge Gerald B. Tjoflat filed a dissenting opinion, which was joined by Judge Charles Wilson, who sits in Tampa.


Extended Deadline Raised Hopes

The Schiavo case seesawed through the federal appeals court Wednesday. The day began with what appeared to be a glint of hope for the Schindlers when the full appeals court issued a seemingly positive ruling allowing the couple to request the en banc hearing. But the ruling amounted merely to a relaxation of a deadline to file paperwork.

When the three-judge panel ruled against the Schindlers on Friday, it gave them until Saturday to request a full-court hearing. Gibbs said over the weekend that the couple would mount no more federal appeals, and so they let the deadline pass.

But the Schindlers changed strategies late Tuesday, filing a motion at 11 p.m. asking for permission to file a late petition with the full court. The court granted permission to file, but later ruled against granting a hearing.

Gibbs said he changed his mind after receiving thousands of faxes and e-mails during the weekend, some offering suggestions on how to argue the appeal.

The appeals centered on a ruling last week by U.S. District Judge James D. Whittemore in Tampa, who refused to order the reinsertion of Schiavo's feeding tube. In his ruling, Whittemore said the Schindlers had failed to demonstrate that they would probably be able to prove that Schiavo's rights had been violated.


Information from The Associated Press was used in this report. Reporters David Sommer and Anthony McCartney and researcher Michael Messano contributed to this report.


Keyword: Schiavo, to read the 11th U.S. Circuit Court's ruling and get today's developments.



http://www.tampatrib.com/MGBILZGIY6E.html
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 06:53 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
I would like to stand up and applaud Judge Birch. I think that he really got to the heart of the matter. No matter how we feel about Terri personally, it has nothing to do with obeying the mandates of the Constitution, and the concept of separation of powers.

Speaking as someone who does feel somewhat differently than you on the issue itself, I totally agree with you on this point. Judge Birch took a stand on constitutional principle, against the party that appointed him. That makes two reasons why he rocks.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 06:58 am
I have started a thread on euthanasia, and would like to hear diverse opinions:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=48562
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 07:50 am
I think Birch's opinion however criticized Congress's apparent implied directive on how the case should be adjudicated, and it did not criticize the law passed that made a federal appeal possible. In that he is probably right. It is not that Congress cleared the way for the appeal but that they took a judicial 'side' in doing so. Congress after all created the federal court system and must be able to pass and repeal laws to which thoset courts are bound.

Activist judges are one problem and a particular concern of mine. But there is a larger and more pervasive trend for the judiciary to be afforded more than the co-equal powers assigned to it by the Constitution. When judges are held up as gods not to be challenged or questioned, I think we are in danger of losing the core principles of our Republic form of government.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 08:37 am
Re: I'm not a conservative
Thomas wrote:
Lola, referring to Debrah, wrote:
And I do not agree with you that this is not a liberal vs. conservative case. It is part of the New Right's agenda which Bush is obligated to fulfill.

I knew it! Debrah always looked kind of conservative to me behind her pro-gay-marriage, pro-choice facade ...

Lola wrote:
My complaint isn't that poster cases are used, but rather that this poster case is an unconscionable use of a defenseless person and her husband and parents. These people need to greive their losses and face reality. What the pro-lifers and the media are doing is inhumane.

I think Brandon is on to something on that one. If this defenseless person isn't worth defending against death anymore, why is she worth defending against politicians who made her a poster case? According to your own arguments, she isn't really around anymore to be bothered by either.


I'm thinking of the living. Her husband and family and the parents. She doesn't know anything now. She's been functionally dead for years. But if it were my spouse, I would want to remember her as she was, not as the political media show she has become. Can you image for a moment how you would feel if someone as dear to you as your spouse was being used in this way? It's sad the way we fight our political battles and find entertainment with people's lives. It's a constant soap opera.

I was thinking yesterday, as I was having fun with my grand daughter at the Central Park zoo, how we all have our own reasons for our strong feelings in this (and other) cases. What it means to each of us has very little to do with Terri Schaivo. It's a shame we can't leave them alone to live their lives without adding to the trauma already sustained by her loved ones loss.

I have and still do work with patients with eating disorders. I much prefer to see them improve and enjoy their lives. Terry Savage and the New Right control freaks are committing a crime against her family. How selfish of us all for not helping them in a way that will allow them to repair and live.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 08:45 am
Thomas wrote:
Lola wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Lola wrote:
Your comparison to the atmosphere in Europe is not relevant to this situation in an important way. The right to lifers have chosen this case as a poster case. The injustice as far as I'm concerned is the way in which Terri and her family are being used. Why aren't we hearing about all the other cases out there like this one? There are many. It's because Terri's tragedy was perfect for the political ends to which it's being used.


And? Given that civil rights activists in the 1950s considered segregation jurisprudence unjust, what's wrong with them having made Rosa Parks their poster case? Given that "pro-life" activists consider Florida abortion jurisprudence unjust, what's wrong with them making Terri Schiavo's parents their poster case? In terms of activism, the situations seem analogous to me, except that you think the civil rights activists were fighting the right fight, and the "pro-lifers" are fighting the wrong fight. But I don't think that should determine which poster case is appropriate and which isn't.


The difference, and it's a huge difference, is that Rosa Parks was more than willing to take on the crusade and Terri Shaivo is not and cannot.

Yes. That's why I said "Terri Shiavo's parents", who are willing to take on the crusade.


Terri was an adult when this tragedy struck. She was a married woman with her own life. She had a husband and had separated from her family. Numerous judges have found her husbands account of his wife's wishes on this matter credible and her parents not.

We don't know what went on between these parents and the couple. But the fact that they would intervene in this way and the fact of her severe eating disorder indicates a possibility that they have been invasive in the life of their daughter all along. Look at the symbolism of the force feeding of a bulimic woman. Now they're willing to use her as a poster case for the Fundamentalists. They have no rights in this matter.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 08:51 am
Lola wrote:
Terri was an adult when this tragedy struck. She was a married woman with her own life. She had a husband and had separated from her family. Numerous judges have found her husbands account of his wife's wishes on this matter credible and her parents not.

That's not the case I have read about. In the case I have read about, it was a "he said, she said" tie between her husband's version and the parents' version. The husband's version prevailed because under Florida law, he was the next of kin, and it's the next of kin who decides.

Lola wrote:
They have no rights in this matter.

Legally, perhaps. Morally, they certainly do. Morally, I don't see why the parents would be any less close to her than a husband who has moved on.
0 Replies
 
 

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