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Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 07:22 pm
Fox.. ROFLMBO..
No.. you just ignored the REST of her history..
3 Drs in ONE trial and 4 OTHER court appointed guardians that came to the SAME CONCLUSIONS

That would be 7
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 07:39 pm
I do believe it unconscionable that an innocent living human being is condemned to die by one of the most inhumane methods imaginable and one that would be illegal to do to any animal or the most vile criminal, or terrorist. How do those of you who think Terri Shiavo should be killed reconcile that in your minds? I don't mean that as a contentious question as I think some of you are honestly sincere that you think that is the right thing to do. But if there is any chance that it might cause her pain, how can that be done to her?

Look up death by dehydration and how that is not the way any of us would choose to go.

Meanwhile I shall continue to attempt to educate myself and will ignore those who prefer to spend their time criticizing or insulting other members rather than taking part in the discussion.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 07:42 pm
I was going by the one post Parados. I'm not ignoring anything and I've looked at all the time lines. I'm not seeing any but court appointed doctors saying that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state. I am seeing much medical opinion, including those who have spent time with Terri, stating the probability that she she is not brain dead. I think we would do better to err on the side of caution in a matter like this wouldn't you think?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 07:44 pm
would be a far far better thing to allow humane euthanasia, a simple sleeping med overdose but that is against the will of the religious right-wing nuts. This, obviously, is a difficult and complicated social/political issue and will not be easily resolved to anyones satisfaction. the political grandstanding by the DeLay/Frist crowd is only making it far far worse for no apparent reason then their own personal/political agenda.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 07:48 pm
dys, They're preparing for the next elections.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 07:50 pm
<double post>
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 07:51 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
NImh, from my own research I think $80,000 a year unlikely for purely maintenance care, but even if that figure is accurate, your own source said the bulk of the expense was being picked up by other sources.

True.

Foxfyre wrote:
So the verdict was 3 doctors for 'no hope' and 2 doctors said she could likely be treated? How many of us would wish to have the plug pulled on that kind of evidence?

http://libertytothecaptives.net/hammesfahr_dr._report.html

Fox, Hammesfahr is the "world-renowned neurologist" I was talking about, who turned out not really to know what he's talking about it seems. That's what I got from exactly the link you now bring, anyway. Did you read it?

[EDIT: I'm referring to another link on the same domain, http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/order_nov_22_2002.html]

First off, the order deals with whether Terri is in a vegetative state or not, and it specifies that the court doesn't just go on a headcount like you're implying:

Quote:
Three of the five doctors testified that Terry [sic] Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state [..]. Two of the doctors felt that she was not in a persistent vegetative state. These two sets of opinions had little in common. Those who felt she was not in a persistent vegetative state placed great emphasis upon her interaction with her mother during Dr. Maxfield's examination and the tracking of a balloon. Those who felt that she was in a persistent vegetative state felt that her actions were neither consistent nor reproducible but rather were random reflexes in response to stimuli. However, the court has not and will not make its decision or a simple head count but will instead consider all factors.


The order then goes on to specify:

Quote:
At first blush, the video of Terry [sic] Schiavo appearing to smile and look lovingly at her mother seemed to represent cognition. This was also true for how she followed the Mickey Mouse balloon held by her father. The court has carefully viewed the videotapes as requested by counsel and does find that these actions were neither consistent nor reproducible. For instance, [text provides different examples proving her actions were neither consistent nor reproducible].

Dr. Hammesfahr testified that he felt that he was able to get Terry Schiavo to reproduce repeatedly to his commands. However, by the court's count, he gave 105 commands to Terry Schiavo [..]. Again, by the court's count, he asked her 61 questions [..]. The court saw few actions that could be considered responsive to either those commands or those questions. The videographer focused on her hands when Dr. Hammesfahr was asking her to squeeze. While Dr. Hammesfahr testified that she squeezed his finger on command, the video would not appear to support that and his reaction on the video likewise would not appear to support that testimony. [..]

Viewing all of the evidence as a whole, and acknowledging that medicine is not a precise science, the court finds that the credible evidence overwhelmingly supports the view that Terry Schiavo remains in a persistent vegetative state. Even Dr. Maxfield acknowledges that vegetative patients can track on occasion and that smiling can be a reflex.


Then the order deals with that other issue the three disagreed on with the two: whether there are "treatment options for Terry [sic] Schiavo [that] will have any positive affect so as to "significantly improve her quality of life."':

Quote:
The treatment options essentially were the vasodilatation therapy offered by Dr. Hammesfahr and the hyperbaric therapy proposed by Dr. Maxfield. [..]

Dr. Maxfield felt there was an 80% chance of improvement in Spect Scan results from hyperbaric therapy. [..] Drs. Greer, Bambakidis and Cranford have all referred patients for hyperbaric therapy but none for this type of brain injury. They felt that such therapy would have no affect on Terry [sic] Schiavo. It is interesting to note the absence of any case studies since this therapy is not new and this condition has long been in the medical arena.

Dr. Hammesfahr feels his vasodilatation therapy will have a positive affect on Terry Schiavo. Drs. Greer, Bambakidis and Cranford do not feel it will have such an affect. It is clear that this therapy is not recognized in the medical community. [..] what undemises [Hammesfahr's] creditability [sic] is that he did not present to this court any evidence other than his generalized statements as to the efficacy of his therapy on brain damaged individuals like Terry [sic] Schiavo. He testified that he has treated about 50 patients in the same or worse condition than Terry [sic] Schiavo since 1994 but he offered no names, no case studies, no videos and no tests results to support his claim that he had success in all but one of them. If his therapy is as effective as he would lead this court to believe, it is inconceivable that he would not produce clinical results of these patients he has treated. And surely the medical literature would be replete with this new, now patented, procedure. Yet, he has only published one article and that was in 1995 involving some 63 patients, 60% of whom were suffering from whiplash. None of these patients were in a persistent vegetative state and all were conversant. Even he acknowledges that he is aware of no article or study that shows vasodilatation therapy to be an effective treatment for persistent vegetative state patients. [..]

[..] While Dr. Hammesfahr blithely stated he should be able to get her to talk, he admitted he was not sure in what way he can improve her condition although he feels certain her can. He also told the court that "only rarely" do his patients have no improvement. Again, he is extremely short of specifics. Dr. Maxfield spoke of a "chance" of recovery although he stated there was a significant probability that hyperbaric therapy would improve her condition. It is clear from the evidence that these therapies are experimental insofar as the medical community is concerned with regard to patients like Terry Schiavo which is borne out by the total absence of supporting case studies or medical literature. The Mandate requires something more than a belief, hope or "some" improvement. It requires this court to find, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the treatment offers such sufficient promise of increased cognitive function in Mrs. Schiavo's cerebral cortex so as to significantly improve her quality of life. There is no such testimony, much less a preponderance of the evidence to that effect. [..]

I find the last two paragraphs in particular pretty damning re: the single two doctors who have pleaded the argument suggested by Terri's parents, especially Hammesfahr.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 07:53 pm
well, C.I. like I said before, the dem party has been tripping over it's own shoelaces for quite awhile but the dem losers are nothing compared to the rapidly growinh hubris of the Repubs that are demanding being dismantled by their disregard for america.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 08:02 pm
It's disgusting what's going on here. I let people influence me to support a major political party the last election. From now on, it's over. Both parties stink.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 08:03 pm
I found the affidavit posted by Husker to be chilling. I can't quite get past it to think of much else, except the stress to her parents must be close to unbearable.
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pragmatic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 08:13 pm
who to believe who to believe? You tell me.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 08:38 pm
Nimh I did read it. I didn't pick up though that Hammesfahr was the one discredited - I thought it was another, somebody starting with Letter"S" or something. I don't know and don't care enough to go back and re-read. Smile I'll take your word for it. I have read far too many 'expert witness' reports seeking to discredit the other side's 'expert witness' reports to give an inordinate amount of weight to 'expert witnesses'. I would give a doctor who had actually spent some quality time with Terri Shaivo more benefit of the doubt than one who had not. And as a mother, I know from experience that very often the mother knows more than the doctor in some cases.

And Hammesfahr seems to have some pretty impressive credentials too.

Quote:
Dr. Hammesfahr was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology in 1999 for his work in brain injury and stroke. He has successfully treated thousands of patients using vasodilator therapy which increases blood flow to the brain healing conditions previously thought to be untreatable. He has been using this technology for more than a decade with good results. Patients are seeing remarkable reduction in pain, return of function in previously unusable limbs, and return of lost sight, hearing, and other function. In 2000, this work resulted in approval for the first patent in history granted for the treatment of neurological diseases including coma, stroke, brain injury, cerebral palsy, hypoxic injuries and other neurovascular disorders with medications that restore blood flow to the brain. It was extended to treat successfully disabilities including ADD, ADHD, Dyslexia, Tourette's and Autism as well as behaviorally and emotionally disturbed children, seizures and severe migraines.

The federal government has recognized Dr. Hammesfahr's clinical expertise, naming him Reviewer and Chief Reviewer for evaluation and funding for new clinical research programs. He has also been a court-recognized expert and a court-ordered treating physician for these techniques that he pioneered. He has lectured and published extensively. Dr. Hammesfahr graduated from the Northwestern Honors Program in Medical Education in 1982, a program which only accepts a small number of high school students directly into medical school. He then trained in Neurosurgery and Neurology at the Medical College in Virginia. He has received Board Certification in both Neurology and Pain Management.

Dr. Hammesfahr's work has been presented at numerous conferences and on the web. The National Peripheral Neuropathy Convention is June 25-27 from 9-5. He will be speaking on Saturday, June 26th: Neuropathy Pain 9:00-10:20 and Diabetic Neuropathy 200-3:20. All conference activities will be held at:

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/6/emw136836.htm
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 08:43 pm
JustWonders wrote:
I found the affidavit posted by Husker to be chilling. I can't quite get past it to think of much else, except the stress to her parents must be close to unbearable.

Yeah really, I guess when one reads the observations of a CNA who has had on the job training in both bed pans and bed baths (that has been notarized) and takes it over the evidence offered by board certified neurologists that have been actually treating the patient in question it would be chilling indeed.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 08:57 pm
I would never take you for someone who would discount the validity of observations of a person just because they are 'merely' a CNA.

Asking her to come to conclusions about it--yes. But those people see more that doctors do--in terms of observation. Sounded surprisingly elitist from such a fair-minded, down to earth guy.

Please get back to being perfect quickly. This has tilted my globe.
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 09:00 pm
LOL Lash, I can see your raised eyebrow. Still, don't you think that a subjective observation should be given less credibility than neurologists? Even doctors who have been hired by Terri's family might not be as objective as court appointed doctors.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 09:01 pm
I've never pretended to be other than Elitist.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 09:08 pm
You did, too, pretend to be other!

<smiles at Diane...I just wanted to speak for the CNAs. Sometimes they are the only ones who care for people like Shiavo. They see the nasty reeking underbelly of humanity--those people we've discarded. I just wanted to say their observations are valid. I also understand what you're saying.>
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 09:10 pm
btw Lash, I have the greatest respect for CNA's they do amazing work for extremely little pay but that does not include making medical diagnosis especially of a neurological patient. I remain elitist but humbly so.
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 09:13 pm
Lash, I've known quite a few cna"s and nurses. To me, many, if not most have better insight into a patient's emotional and physical state. Still, the doctor is the one who has the best diagnostic training.

Bet you were a good cna. I'd have loved to see you give Dys what for when he was in the hospital.....only a couple of the nurses had any idea what he was talking about, but there were a couple very sharp nurses who could give it right back at him.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 09:17 pm
I was only referring to the woman's observations of Michael Schiavo and his treatment of his wife. I haven't read anything concerning similar observations by her doctors.
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