Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

jpin wrote:

Quote:

I just read this in a Thomas Sowell column... has anybody heard anything about this?

That was addressed earlier in this thread. The nurse was found to be not credible by the court. She alleged lots of other things too. Then claims she lost her notes.

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It's moving so quickly because it's been done and heard more than a dozen times before. This isn't tv, where the young, perky assistant to the defense arrives with the new evidence held tightly under his arm.
(Although Jeb Bush did try to assert that there was a new opinion to be considered a few days ago, the state court rejected both the new opinion and the attempt by Florida's Department of Children Services to take custody in the case.)

Surfing through the articles on this matter I found this:

Quote:

While the House debate was bitter, there was none in the Senate. The Senate's GOP leadership won agreement on the legislation from Democrats, who didn't even show up Sunday for the voice vote that took less than two minutes.

With Sen. Mel Martinez, R-Fla., presiding, the compromise Schiavo bill passed on a voice vote in a chamber empty of senators save for Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., and John Warner, R-Va.

Sun Sentinel, Florida

That's your unanimous vote in the Senate.
Three guys in ties who know better than you or I-es.

Joe(I have a parking ticket I need fixed, should I call the Congress?)Nation

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parados wrote:

jpin wrote:

Quote:
I just read this in a Thomas Sowell column... has anybody heard anything about this?

That was addressed earlier in this thread. The nurse was found to be not credible by the court. She alleged lots of other things too. Then claims she lost her notes.

Thanks. I hadn't heard anything about that until now.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
Hey phoenix...notice how Brandon responded to nearly every one but your post and mine? It must have clarified it for him.

Strip away all the bullshit, and extraneous facts, the conclusion is clear to any rational person, and cannot be argued.

Well, forgive me if I try. The case seems to rest on the idea that TS stated that she wanted to die in these circumstances. Every time anyone asks for evidence that she wanted to die, though, the answer is either, "because Michael says so and the courts believe him," or "the evidence has been posted repeatedly." Please provide some actual evidence that she wanted to die in these circumances. If my postion "cannot be argued," you should find this easy. If, on the other hand, you respond with an evasion, it will be obvious that you simply have no evidence.

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Lash wrote:

But, this sets a very bad precedent, IMO. Had they had her wishes in writing, it would be different. I think we will see a spate of withdrawal of feeding tubes now. Those people seem infinitely more disposable today.

This has been happening around the country every day for decades. This one was brought to our attention merely as a sick political ploy. There is no precedent setting with this case except for the fact that Congress stepped in.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

Please provide some actual evidence that she wanted to die in these circumances. If my postion "cannot be argued," you should find this easy. If, on the other hand, you respond with an evasion, it will be obvious that you simply have no evidence.

Please provide some actual evidence that she didn't want to die.

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Squinney--

Her parents brought it to the forefront. They have been desperately trying to keep their daughter alive. I don't know why people try to act as though that's not the reality.

Bella--

In the absence of evidence that someone wants to die--or doesn't want to die, would you rather err on the side of killing them, or leaving them alive? I think that's the basic question.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Please provide some actual evidence that she wanted to die in these circumances. If my postion "cannot be argued," you should find this easy. If, on the other hand, you respond with an evasion, it will be obvious that you simply have no evidence.

Please provide some actual evidence that she didn't want to die.

As I thought, an evasion. Your assertion that the absence of evidence constitutes evidence is baloney. You don't kill someone because there is no evidence they wanted to live. Looks like yours is the case that can't be argued. The case has gone the way it has, at least formally, because the courts have accepted as fact that she wanted to die. Provide a shred of evidence, Phoenix, or admit that you can't. I await your next evasion or misdirection.

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Lash wrote:

Squinney--

Her parents brought it to the forefront. They have been desperately trying to keep their daughter alive. I don't know why people try to act as though that's not the reality.

Bella--

In the absence of evidence that someone wants to die--or doesn't want to die, would you rather err on the side of killing them, or leaving them alive? I think that's the basic question.

Like that baby in Texas you mean?

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I've seen that alluded to--but don't know about that case. Is there a link here about it? I'd like to look at the facts.

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"Vegetative" does not equal "vegetable."

Heard a nifty article on NPR about how the folks who chose the name (30? years ago) used the dictionary definition of "vegetaitive" but failed to anticipate the derogatory usage of "vegetable."

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Brandon- Michael is Terri's guardian. The courts have gone through this ad nauseum, and have concurred that there is no reason for the guardianship to be removed. The courts must now abide by what he says.

We can continue to speculate forever, but the law is clear.

Quote:

Please provide some actual evidence that she wanted to die in these circumances.

Brandon- I refuse to go around and around this with you. There is no evidence except for Michael's word. That legally trumps all the handwringing that is going on. This is a tragic case, but one must separate the legal from the emotional in order to gain some logical perspective.

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Brandon,
I realize you won't take anything as evidence but here is the statement by the judge in the case...

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In his ruling, Greer said an affidavit from a neurologist who believes that Schiavo is "minimally conscious" was not enough to set aside his decision to allow the withdrawal of food and water.

"By clear and convincing evidence, it was determined she did not want to live under such burdensome conditions and that she would refuse such medical treatment-assistance," Greer wrote.

The courts LOOKED at the EVIDENCE. It is up to you to show they didn't.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Brandon- Michael is Terri's guardian. The courts have gone through this ad nauseum, and have concurred that there is no reason for the guardianship to be removed. The courts must now abide by what he says.

We can continue to speculate forever, but the law is clear.

An evasion. The law may be clear, but that's not what I asked. Provide some evidence she wanted to die, or admit that there is none. Since this is what the case rests on, it rests on nothing.

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Terry's condition has already improved. On this thread, she has gone from brain-dead to Persistent Vegetative state, to brain-damaged, and now minimally conscious... maybe they should see how she's doing tomorrow.

I'd like to know what evidence was clear and convincing that she would refuse treatment? Really like to see that.

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Lash wrote:

Squinney--

Her parents brought it to the forefront. They have been desperately trying to keep their daughter alive. I don't know why people try to act as though that's not the reality.

Under different circumstances, I think that if they wanted to care for her, her husband should at least consider walking away. However, he is convinced that Terri doesn't want to live this way. So he is acting on her behalf.

Lash wrote:

Bella--

In the absence of evidence that someone wants to die--or doesn't want to die, would you rather err on the side of killing them, or leaving them alive? I think that's the basic question.

That depends. That is a personal choice. We can all say they should do this or that but in reality, the decision lies with the family who is representing the person unable to represent herself. I think it is wrong for the state or gov't to get involved. This is a deeply personal choice.

Families have removed feeding tubes voluntarily because they knew that there was no hope for recovery and that the person being kept "alive" would not want to exist in such a state. However, there are also people who don't care, and want to keep that person around no matter what. Both are choices that are as individual and complex as the families who have to make them.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

Phoenix32890 wrote:
Brandon- Michael is Terri's guardian. The courts have gone through this ad nauseum, and have concurred that there is no reason for the guardianship to be removed. The courts must now abide by what he says.

We can continue to speculate forever, but the law is clear.

An evasion. The law may be clear, but that's not what I asked. Provide some evidence she wanted to die, or admit that there is none. Since this is what the case rests on, it rests on nothing.

Brandon, I'll make it easy on you since you apparently can't be bothered to read every post in the thread: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1243509#1243509

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DrewDad wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Brandon- Michael is Terri's guardian. The courts have gone through this ad nauseum, and have concurred that there is no reason for the guardianship to be removed. The courts must now abide by what he says.

We can continue to speculate forever, but the law is clear.

An evasion. The law may be clear, but that's not what I asked. Provide some evidence she wanted to die, or admit that there is none. Since this is what the case rests on, it rests on nothing.

Brandon, I'll make it easy on you since you apparently can't be bothered to read every post in the thread: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1243509#1243509

This is just a link to judge Greer saying that there is "clear and convincing" evidence that she wanted to die. I am asking someone to tell me a particle of this evidence.

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Quote:

I'd like to know what evidence was clear and convincing that she would refuse treatment? Really like to see that.

It was presented in open court and would be a matter of public record. Easy enough to drive to the courthouse in Florida and ask to see it. That is if you "REALLY" want to see it.

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Brandon,

LOL.. go to the courthouse.. Don't sit here and whine to us all day. Geez.. Some people have no brains at all.. (I don't mean any disrespect to Terri by that statement.)

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Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

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