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Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 02:44 pm
Debra_Law,

I was just reading a post at www.talkingpointsmemo.com in which Josh Marshall is asking for better legal opinions than his limited knowledge can provide as to whether or not Due Process was followed correctly in the TS case; you might want to cut-and-paste that last post to him if you feel like it.

Cheers

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 02:46 pm
It is possible to separate people from policy.
I cant help it if you will not do that.
That is just laziness on your part.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 03:15 pm
Thanks for your reply, Debra. That cleared up a number of points for me.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 03:30 pm
Thomas wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
Would you agree that a state may not infringe upon a fundamental right unless the state has a compelling interest in doing so and the means used are necessary and narrowly tailored to serve that compelling interest?


What do you mean by "fundamental right"? I don't know how you would tell whether a right is fundamental or not -- other than looking up whether it is mentioned in the Bill of Rights. But even assuming that the constitution guarantees substantive due process in that sense (which isn't clear to me): What fundamental right is being served by treating Terri Schiavo unlike everybody else? And why is this discrimination in favor of her, and against everybody else, narrowly tailored to serve said state interest?


Just a quick note. FEDERAL--Congress enacted a law concerning Terri. Congress vested the federal courts with jurisdiction to hear, on a de novo basis, any claims that Terri may have that the STATE of Florida violated her constitutional rights regardless of whether those claims had been heard or not by any other court. The law gave the Schindlers standing to bring suit on behalf of themselves and Terri so long as they did so within 30 days.

When we talk about this CONGRESSIONAL enactment, it is constitutional. There are probably "policy considerations" that make this type of private bill an affront to people's sensibilities, but the politicians who voted for the bill and the president who signed the bill into law are answerable to the electorate. I cannot find where the law itself is unconstitutional.

I'm trying to figure out how to make this simple (because it's not simple).

I think you're trying to argue that this "private bill" passed for Terri and the Schindlers was a violation of equal protection because other persons similarly situated were not given the same right to go into federal court and litigate that some state court(s) had ordered the removal of their feeding tubes in violation of their constitutionally protected right to life.

The thing is, if these other "similarly situated" persons challenged the application of the law, they wouldn't be asking for the law to be declared unconstitutional as applied to Terri . . . they would ask that the law be declared unconstitutional as applied to them because THEY were excluded and hence denied equal protection under the law. Just because some other person could feasibly argue that they didn't get the same benefit that Terri received, that doesn't mean that the law itself is unconstitutional on its face or as applied to Terri.

[This issue is what 40 page law review articles are intended to cover, so I'm trying to make it simple . . . not easy.]

With respect to Terri's case, the law is for Terri's benefit. She cannot claim that the law has caused her any injury at all. She would never challenge the law as unconstitutional.

Michael could not argue that the law is unconstitutional on equal protection grounds because he wouldn't have standing to assert the rights of third parties who are similarly situated to Terri.

The State of Florida would not have standing to challenge the law on equal protection grounds. I mean, what would the State's argument be?

"May it please the FEDERAL court: The state of Florida doesn't just violate Terri's substantive due process right to life in the circumstances of this case, the State of Florida violates the substantive due process rights to life of all persons in the state's jurisdiction who are similarly situated to Terri and therefore, we ask the FEDERAL court to find the federal law unconstitutional on its face on equal protection grounds because it doesn't allow all the state-oppressed persons to litigate their federal claims on a de novo basis in a federal forum. . . ."

Well, that was silly.

I have a really difficult time figuring out how anyone could possibly have standing to challenge the FEDERAL law as unconstitutional on equal protection grounds.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 03:51 pm
Quote:
what are your medical credentials. Mine are Certified Respiratory Therapy Technician .... C.R.T.T.. I sat for and passed my nationals on the first try in December 1972. Iworked in that capacity for thirty five years. Part of that time was spent working on people in exactly the same condition as Terry.


Debra,
I missed your answer to Gel's question above too. What are your medical credentials?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 03:57 pm
Lola wrote:
Quote:
what are your medical credentials. Mine are Certified Respiratory Therapy Technician .... C.R.T.T.. I sat for and passed my nationals on the first try in December 1972. Iworked in that capacity for thirty five years. Part of that time was spent working on people in exactly the same condition as Terry.


Debra,
I missed your answer to Gel's question above too. What are your medical credentials?



Before we proceed any further, I'd like to see everyone else's legal credentials.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:00 pm
The dog ate my diploma
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:08 pm
The goat ate mine. Wink
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:09 pm
Tico,
I argued only medical points and issues. I don't understand your point in asking for law degrees ..... that would be Debs place don't you think? I would be out of place to argue the legal aspects as I am ignorant of the law.
What's your point?
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:20 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
Quote:
Schiavo memo, part II
by kos
Wed Apr 6th, 2005 at 23:44:03 PDT

Before the GOP and its shills try to pass off the Schiavo memo as the work of "some staffer", note that the memo was penned by Martinez' Chief Legal Counsel -- a senior level position, not to mention a seasoned political pro; and Martinez himself passed out copies of the memo.

And there's a DeLay connection, as Jerome notes:

Now that Brian Darling of the Alexander Strategy Group has been penned as the author, it connects the dots to why Tom DeLay also used the talking points. The Alexander Strategy Group is a firm created by former DeLay chief of staff Ed Buckham (and yet another place from where DeLay's wife has cashed checks). Tom DeLay used the talking points at least on three occasions...

The wingnutosphere spent the last few weeks screaming bloody murder about the memo (which frankly I had forgotten about), claiming it was some sinister Democratic plot. They wanted to make a big deal about it, so let's make sure we oblige.

http://www.dailykos.com


http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:3iXY5FJEgQcJ:www.civicactions.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl%3FAlexander_Strategy+Alexander+Strategy+Group+&hl=en

Quote:
From Disinfopedia: (3MX)

Alexander Strategy Group (3MY)

The Alexander Strategy Group (ASG) is a Republican Party-associated lobbying and political strategy firm with offices in Washington and Hong Kong. ASG was founded by Ed Buckham, the former chief of staff to Texas GOP Congressman and House Majority Whip Tom DeLay, and Tony Rudy, a lobbyist for pharmaceutical companies and also a former top aide to DeLay. (3MZ)

Christine DeLay, Tom's wife, also receives a salary from ASG.[1] Her approximately $40,000 a year salary, though, is "for her job as chief executive officer of Americans for a Republican Majority." According to Tom DeLay's communications director, "DeLay's wife is paid through the Alexander Strategy Group primarily as a bookkeeping arrangement... She does not keep an office at the firm and often works out of the couple's home."[2] But Christine DeLay is not listed among the firm's 17 staff members on ASG's website.[3] (3N0)

According to its website: "Unlike traditional lobbying firms, Alexander Strategy Group offers an integrated suite of advocacy services that includes government affairs, strategic consulting, public relations, grassroots development, creative media, international representation, coalition building, business development and corporate/crisis communications."[4] And, from a press release: ASG has "worked extensively with the Executive and Legislative branches of government, been involved in numerous Presidential and Congressional campaigns, forged alliances with numerous conservative advocacy groups and worked at the highest levels of the international arena."[5] (3N1)

Enron was ASG's biggest client; they received at least $411,000 from Enron between 1999 and 2001.[6] Ed Buckham and ASG were involved with a "secret 'grassroots' campaign -- spearheaded by Enron -- to deregulate energy markets... An outline for the plan was faxed to Tom DeLay?'s Washington office. It was printed on Alexander Strategy letterhead complete with Ed Buckham's name in print. The only problem was that Alexander Strategy's CEO was still in the employ of the federal government at the time... Alexander Strategy Group was, as Enron promised, awarded the $750,000 contract to drum up support for electric power deregulation -- a goal that Enron believed would open the $300 billion a year electric markets to Enron. The stealth campaign would operate out of an energy consortium dubbed, 'Americans for Affordable Electricity' -- a name that Californians would find bitterly ironic just three years later."[7] (3N2)

The North Carolina-based private military contractor Blackwater USA hired ASG for crisis management, public and media relations as Blackwater - and private military contractors in general - came under increased public scrutiny following the public killing and mutilation of four employees in Fallujah, Iraq on March 31, 2004. [8] (3N3)

Other ASG clients include the Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations, the Asbestos Study Group[9], Time Warner, National Association of Convenience Stores, the National Housing & Rehabilitation Association[10], AT&T[11], the Alliance for Automobile Manufacturers, Agriculture Coalition for Immigration Reform, Eli Lilly, KOCH Industries, Microsoft, Nuclear Energy Institute, Xcel Energy and United States Telecom Association.[12] (3N4)

Contact Info ALEXANDER STRATEGY GROUP Mike Mihalke, Senior Partner 3000 K St. NW, Suite 101 Washington, DC 20007 (3N5)

http://www.alexanderstrategy.com (3N6)

Phone: 202-339-8900 Fax: 202-339-8927 (3N7)
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:48 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Dookie,
You have made it crystal clear that you wont be happy till every conservative or republican is either dead or in prison.
You are constantly thinking the worst of everyone.
If a republican was to donate their entire fortune to the charity of your choice,you would still find a reason to complain,wouldnt you.


The only thing crystal clear here is your unbelievable audacity in accusing me of wanting conservatives or Republicans dead. You said it. I didn't.

That's like conservative Republicans (as in ALL of them) accusing Democrats of planting the Terri Shiavo memo in order to make them look bad, when in reality it was someone from their own ranks who actually produced the memo. Boy, talk about eating crow...

But prison IS a different matter. Too bad there's zero accountability with this administration, as well as these neoconservative morons, and there is such a shroud of secrecy in place which keeps our government from doing what it's supposed to do for the American people.

You guys shot yourselves in the a$$ big time on this Terri Shiavo mess...
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:54 pm
Gelisgesti wrote:
Tico,
I argued only medical points and issues. I don't understand your point in asking for law degrees ..... that would be Debs place don't you think? I would be out of place to argue the legal aspects as I am ignorant of the law.
What's your point?


Gelisgesti:

You didn't argue medical points and issues, you merely claimed to be a medical expert due to your respiratory therapy background and then asked if Terri could swallow, why the feeding tube and why would a judge interfere with the natural intake of food and drink.

I provided you with the information that is readily available in hundreds of court documents with respect to "medical points and issues." The medical experts and professionals and caregivers involved did not and do not agree on numerous substantive issues. I provided you with links to the documents. I provided you with the judge's reason for denying permission to provide Terri with nutrition and hydration by mouth. I can't make you read the court documents.

It doesn't take any special professional qualities or attributes to access websites, read the documents, and familiarize oneself with the facts and disputes concerning the case.

Do you at least acknowledge that that there was NO CONSENSUS among the medical professionals, experts, and caregivers with respect to Terri's case? I am not ignorant of the medical disputes in this case, but you won't even read the relevant documents.

Terri may have been in a persistent vegetative state. Terri's condition may never have improved. But the fact remains that Terri did not leave an advance health care directive and there was considerable dispute concerning Terri's wishes. The dispute in Terri's case arises because Michael said she wanted to die and the Schindlers said she wanted to live. I believe the constitutional law of this nation requires us to err on the side of life.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 04:57 pm
Gelisgesti wrote:
Tico,
I argued only medical points and issues. I don't understand your point in asking for law degrees ..... that would be Debs place don't you think? I would be out of place to argue the legal aspects as I am ignorant of the law.
What's your point?


Still haven't seen the answer. But isn't that conservative strategy for ya? A question is asked, no answer, just a question back and insinuation.

Oh, and my degree is in the mental health field. But I think I've covered that already.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 05:39 pm
They are really good at "insinuations." I can atest to that fact, and if need be post some of the gems.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 05:47 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
Tico,
I argued only medical points and issues. I don't understand your point in asking for law degrees ..... that would be Debs place don't you think? I would be out of place to argue the legal aspects as I am ignorant of the law.
What's your point?


Gelisgesti:

You didn't argue medical points and issues, you merely claimed to be a medical expert due to your respiratory therapy background and then asked if Terri could swallow, why the feeding tube and why would a judge interfere with the natural intake of food and drink.

I provided you with the information that is readily available in hundreds of court documents with respect to "medical points and issues." The medical experts and professionals and caregivers involved did not and do not agree on numerous substantive issues. I provided you with links to the documents. I provided you with the judge's reason for denying permission to provide Terri with nutrition and hydration by mouth. I can't make you read the court documents.

It doesn't take any special professional qualities or attributes to access websites, read the documents, and familiarize oneself with the facts and disputes concerning the case.

Do you at least acknowledge that that there was NO CONSENSUS among the medical professionals, experts, and caregivers with respect to Terri's case? I am not ignorant of the medical disputes in this case, but you won't even read the relevant documents.

Terri may have been in a persistent vegetative state. Terri's condition may never have improved. But the fact remains that Terri did not leave an advance health care directive and there was considerable dispute concerning Terri's wishes. The dispute in Terri's case arises because Michael said she wanted to die and the Schindlers said she wanted to live. I believe the constitutional law of this nation requires us to err on the side of life.


Please go by what I said and stop re-writing my words to fit your needs. When did I claim to be an expert. Your answers were all in the form of links to web sites like terri'sfight, the family web site ... you never answered a single question that I posed, not one.
You quoted opinion after opinion with no reference. There was one opinion that out weighed even your learned .... or unlearned opinion...Michael, who knows more about Terri's condition than you, the family, plus all the lawyers bought by the far right. Or did you know that not only is he an R.R.T. .... Registered Respiratory Therapist, with two more years of school than I had ..... plus ..... he is a Registered Nurse ...... don't bother answering, I think I know your medical expierence from what you write and besides, I hate to see my words twisted out of recognition.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 05:50 pm
Totally off-topic, but...what the hell.

Am I the only one who wonders why people blythely accept the mispronunciation of their names? I keep hearing Schiavo pronounced as "shy-vo" when it, obviously, should be "ski-ah-vo."
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 05:52 pm
Ticomaya wrote:


Before we proceed any further, I'd like to see everyone else's legal credentials.


Why? You don't need "legal credentials" to know and understand the law, only to practise it Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 08:22 pm
Quote:
Or did you know that not only is he an R.R.T. .... Registered Respiratory Therapist, with two more years of school than I had ..... plus ..... he is a Registered Nurse ......


I didn't know this, Gel. Where can I look to confirm it?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 08:31 pm
Quote:
Michael worked as a restaurant manager, then became a respiratory therapist and registered nurse. He works in a hospital emergency room
about.com (celebrity marriages) - one of a number of sites where this is mentioned

http://marriage.about.com/od/celebritymarriages/p/schiavo.htm

Quote:
At first, when doctors told Schiavo his wife's condition was hopeless, he didn't believe it. He flew Terri to California for experimental surgical treatments, then back to Florida to a brain-injury center. He even went back to school to study nursing so he could care for her.


Quote:
Schiavo, now a respiratory therapist and emergency room nurse,
palm
beach post


There was a fair bit of coverage of this angle.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2005 08:37 pm
Quote:
March 25, 2005
Cast of Characters in the Schiavo Case

The following is a compilation of the cast of characters related to the Schiavo case.

(Note: This is a work in progress. Items will be added as more information is gathered. To assist with the case of Terri Schiavo and to help the Schindlers with their continuing efforts, information provided here may be freely used with the condition that Myopic Zeal is credited with the compilation. This is a compilation taken from public records, news accounts, and information provided from a variety of other sources. If you have additional, credible information regarding a cast of characters please communicate with us.)

Disclaimer: This compilation is not intended to imply anything. It is an effort to compile a cast of characters as might be related to the Terri Schiavo case and their relationships as well as events possibly related to the cast. While deemed to be reliable to the best of our knowledge, as with any legal proceeding all information below should be double checked and verified.

* Michael Schiavo, husband of Terri Schiavo and a Florida registered
respiratory therapist and registered nurse (RN license RN9164785) He was issued his nursing license January 18th, 2000 and its expiration is April 30, 2005 (link via Daily Inklings).


klikme for source.

Lola,
clusty.com ... search for whatever in plain old english.
Don't you think if anyone had an idea of Terri's prognosis he would? The **** he has been put through.
0 Replies
 
 

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