bull
we only know our own minds. thats a fact. you know what other poeple think like, and do and personality traits. But we cannot actually know them as in enter them, or predict them or actually 1000% know they exist or are there. We can only presume.
We know our minds exist, because we are our minds, and that bears no relation on what we are taught or how clever we are.
However I do agree that you are in a way forcing yourself to believe. Not however if you are a pagan or a witch, because they believe in gods as deities, and through mind control and focus and symbolism you can achieve what you want.
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Nietzsche
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Fri 18 Mar, 2005 07:37 pm
Huh?
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JLNobody
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Fri 18 Mar, 2005 10:55 pm
Happiness is whatever state of mind you want to have.
It has been said that all nonempirical "beliefs" are selected (or constructed) for the comfort they give. Swift is right: you cannot, by definition, hold a belief you do not believe. This means that if you can't accept any religion because you do not find any of them believable, you must simply do without. Does this mean that you will be unhappy because you choose to believe in a non-belief, to do without the comfort of a belief? But if you "select" that nonbelief, shouldn't that make you happy?
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bach vu
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Fri 18 Mar, 2005 11:06 pm
I believe that religion was originally invented out of fear for the unknown. Before we knew how things worked, perfectly natural processes were attributed to Gods or superior forces. Fearing for our lives, we prayed to God and asked for protection or appeasement, hence the offerings in ancient rituals. As time goes by, religions changed to what they are now.
Having said the above, I think it's perfectly ok for people to believe in whatever they want to. As long as they don't harm anyone around them, then that right should be extended to them. After all, we all have some forms of beliefs eventhough they may not be religious in nature... I believe in science, for example. The main idea here is peaceful coexistance should be promoted!
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Not Too Swift
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Sat 19 Mar, 2005 01:04 am
You cannot "select" a non-belief. You can only deselect the ones you have until you don't have any. This may be a precondition for a more syncretic view because it requires "your" active participation to achieve. What may be accomplished is a "Perspective", something much more dynamic than a "belief" which in these times is nothing more than an "expedient", a pill to ameliorate some current existential woes. A Perspective is without partition; it's a horizon you create, recreate and "travel in". If it didn't change, you wouldn't need more roadmaps because you're now "at home" in "your belief". How comfortable is it? Have you rented or purchased? In short, how long can you "stay" in it? The last 150 years have made us "homeless" as far as "belief" is concerned but that only makes the quest for other possibilities more interesting including the more ancient ones that haven't yet been truly processed or understood. It's all a matter of manufacturing credibilty based on what is known but also on what was known which requires a "re-baptism".
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Not Too Swift
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Sat 19 Mar, 2005 01:07 am
You cannot "select" a non-belief. You can only deselect the ones you have until you don't have any. This may be a precondition for a more syncretic view because it requires "your" active participation to achieve. What may be accomplished is a "Perspective", something much more dynamic than a "belief" which in these times is nothing more than an "expedient", a pill to ameliorate some current existential woes. A Perspective is without partition; it's a horizon you create, recreate and "travel in". If it didn't change, you wouldn't need more roadmaps because you're now "at home" in "your belief". How comfortable is it? Have you rented or purchased? In short, how long can you "stay" in it? The last 150 years have made us "homeless" as far as "belief" is concerned but that only makes the quest for other possibilities more interesting including the more ancient ones that haven't yet been truly processed or understood. It's all a matter of manufacturing credibilty based on what is known but also on what was known that requires a "re-baptism".
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fresco
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Sat 19 Mar, 2005 01:33 am
What is "belief" other than the prediction of future events ? All "knowledge" is based on it.
However most religious beliefs (except those which deconstruct "events" by deconstructing "time") are concerned in part with "events in an afterlife" which mitigate behaviour in "this life".
Thus "socialization" and "continuity of the group beyond the individual" are reinforced by an authority deemed to exist externally and eternally. It is the recognition that such an authority is as mythical and arbitrary as "the emperors new clothes" which forms the essential argument for religious disbelief.
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val
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Sat 19 Mar, 2005 02:30 am
fresco
Exactly as I see it. And that authority has nothing to do with metaphysics! It is always the father/image - not only with christians, ancient greeks spoke about "our father Zeus"- the central reference, that assures the unity of the group (and perhaps also it's collective memory, in non-historical times).
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roverroad
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Sat 19 Mar, 2005 02:52 am
Re: why not believe?
axl roses wife wrote:
Take this as fact: 'the only purpose of religion is to make you happy, it isnt actually true and it doesnt really exist'
If it is to make you happy, then why not belive? !!!
If we did everything that makes us happy, we would all be in prison right now.
I think that you have to create your own reality to be happy, otherwise too much reality will make you go insane.
Hey, if religion makes you happy than good for you. I find it fictitious and boring.
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The Pentacle Queen
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Sun 20 Mar, 2005 06:58 am
I also find religion fictious and boring.
But it does fill a void in some people who havent the strength to reject it. Al I am saying is that if you have not this strength, then there is no harm in beliveing if you want to believe in something.
make sense???
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fresco
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Sun 20 Mar, 2005 09:08 am
edited below
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fresco
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Sun 20 Mar, 2005 09:13 am
axl roses wife
That only makes "sense" if belief is considered neutral. If however it is considered soporific (as in a drug) or pernicious ( as in a virus or disease) then the answer is "no", and any personal "benefits" are outweighed by global consquences. History implies such consequences can be far from socially beneficial.
In the words of Krishnamurti ....."Obviously what causes war is the desire for power, position, prestige, money; also the disease called nationalism, the worship of a flag; and the disease of organized religion, the worship of a dogma. All these are the causes of war; if you as an individual belong to any of the organized religions, if you are greedy for power, if you are envious, you are bound to produce a society which will result in destruction...."
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The Pentacle Queen
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Mon 21 Mar, 2005 06:05 am
No I dont agree
religion can make you happy, because believeing what you want to believe makes you happy. My parents are christians, and if i took their religion away from them then they would be unhappy, their life and struggles would appear meaningless, and they'd probably just turn into alcoholics or something.
However, there are always gonna be extremists in the world, and this applies with everything concerned with beliefs, communisists, terorists, aethetics etc. They are happy though arent they, although they may be angry and cause trouble, if what they had was taken away it would render them unhappy.
I dont see how you can think that global benifit outweighs personal choice. Do you think catholics were happy when henry the 8th decided to make the church of england? Do you think that people who dont follow state religions are happy? no they are not, and they feel excluded and opressed. this proves you cannot 'choose' someones religion and that does not necisarrily make for good global consequences.
Mankinds nature is to squablle, and if it wasnt over religion, then it would be over something else. There are aways going to be conflicts where there are organised religions, and the truth is that belief must be concidered neutral, because we cannot prove which religion is right, if any.
the basis of what i am saying here, if religion does no harm, and makes people happy in themselves, then even though some of us, like me, know that it is a load of **** that people use to feel better about themselves, and life, then there is nothing wrong with it.
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JLNobody
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Mon 21 Mar, 2005 10:28 pm
axleroseswife, it seems to me that no-one can take your parents' religious belief from them. It is my experience that contradictory evidence will always be rejected by believers. A believer once told me that geological "evidence" regarding the age of the earth (as opposed to that established in religous scripture) was planted by the Devil in order to deceive us. I think that if your parents ever gave up their religion it would be not because of contradictory evidence but because they had found something better (i.e., more satisfying for them).. We are rarely forced into an ideological vacuum.
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Ray
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Tue 22 Mar, 2005 02:07 am
Well, what do you mean by happiness?
I'm not quite sure what the correct definition of happiness is, but I believe that certain knowledge is more important than happiness although that does not diminish the importance of it.
I feel that we really don't need beliefs to be happy.
Maybe the answer to your question is reflected in the ending of The Matrix, where people can choose whether they want to stay in the Matrix or in the real world. :wink:
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Eorl
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Tue 22 Mar, 2005 03:20 am
Anyway there are benefits to being an atheist...for example, you can go to see "Passion of the Christ" knowing there will be a happy ending!
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The Pentacle Queen
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Tue 22 Mar, 2005 10:34 am
lol!!
I do agree with you to a certain extent. but I garentee none of you have known the pain that you have to go through to let go of a religion.
most of you on here do not belive, but that is your choice. what you believe, or dont believe in depends of what kind of spirituality you need, and there are some people that are only happy if they have rules to follow, and leaders to look to, like christians. so even if you dont believe in god, or a religion, what you do believe makes u happy.
get what im saying?
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Ray
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Tue 22 Mar, 2005 02:35 pm
Axl, you're right on the letting go thing. I used to be Catholic(though not baptized), but then I came across facts that I can't get my head around, and I became more of a liberal Christian, and then I became more into Buddhism, but I did not fully understand its philosophy, and to make a long thing short, I found that I did not have to be religious to have meaning in my life, in fact it could be the other way around. I think the biggest obstacle for me was that it might make my life meaningless, but I find that meaning exists without religion. Also, to me at that time I thought that my religious beliefs went hand in hand with morality, and it was extremely difficult for me to accept that not believing in my religion does not mean that I do not believe in morality, as I have found out many passages in the bible are not even moral. Anyways it's a gradual process, but I know of other people who grew up in Christian families and simply just reject the religion without probably even going through what I went through.
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The Pentacle Queen
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Wed 23 Mar, 2005 07:02 am
Yes, i know its hard, but its our choice. we wanted to stop believeing.
some people arent this strong though, so in that way religion does make them happy.
and morality will always exist, on the basis that human beings strive to be liked, and therefore will normally act in accordance (to some extent) to make themselves liked.
thats why we find it so hard to be nice to people who aren't nice to us. but anyway...
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BoGoWo
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Wed 23 Mar, 2005 10:30 am
Re: No I dont agree
axl roses wife wrote:
religion can make you happy, because believeing what you want to believe makes you happy. My parents are christians, and if i took their religion away from them then they would be unhappy, their life and struggles would appear meaningless, and they'd probably just turn into alcoholics or something.
[life is 'meaningless'; it is what you 'do', not what imaginary scenario you invent, that gives it meaning.]
However, there are always gonna be extremists in the world, and this applies with everything concerned with beliefs, communisists, terorists, aethetics etc. They are happy though arent they, although they may be angry and cause trouble, if what they had was taken away it would render them unhappy. [extremists are far from happy; they are merely attempting to drag the rest of the world into the same abyss, they find themselves in.]
I dont see how you can think that global benifit outweighs personal choice. Do you think catholics were happy when henry the 8th decided to make the church of england? Do you think that people who dont follow state religions are happy? no they are not, and they feel excluded and opressed. this proves you cannot 'choose' someones religion and that does not necisarrily make for good global consequences.
[those that are capable of hapiness, do not need the support of a creed of invention, those that are not, are perhaps, less challenged by maintaining it.]
Mankinds nature is to squablle, and if it wasnt over religion, then it would be over something else. There are aways going to be conflicts where there are organised religions, and the truth is that belief must be concidered neutral, because we cannot prove which religion is right, if any.
[conflict is never over demonstrating 'truth'; it is about 'power'; about imposing a 'flavour' on truth.]
the basis of what i am saying here, if religion does no harm, and makes people happy in themselves, then even though some of us, like me, know that it is a load of **** that people use to feel better about themselves, and life, then there is nothing wrong with it.
[as is commonly known, 'crap', left alone to fester, soon spreads its stench far and wide!.]
