Explain Zen Enlightenment to Me

A question:
In this context of illusory world, is there a buddhistic explanation of a difference between good and bad worldly deeds? I am not trying to be glib. It is a genuine question about what mechanisms (if any) are there in the teachings for me to justify my wishes to do good things.
Abscent a justification, are persons doing good deeds closer to enlightenment that persons doing bad deeds?

(I edited a typo)

Gravy, that is a very difficult question.Let me muddle through an answer of sorts: I do believe that a person who causes (and enjoys causing) harm to others is a very unenlightened and ego-centered individual. I do not think of zen ethics in terms of social rules to follow. We should follow the legitimate rules of our society, but following the rules of society A or society B is clearly a question of choosing between conventions. The rules of each society could be contradictory, but if one wants to live in either society one must deal with the issue of conformity. That, to me, is a practical, not a spiritual, matter.
In my understanding the principal principle for behavior is the cultivation of compassion. I think both zen buddhism and non-fundamentalist christianity teach the same: if you love (have compassion) you may safely do as you will. Notice that compassion is the relative absence of self-centeredness. THAT is one of the preconditions of enlightenment--necessary but not sufficient.

thanks JNL.

I understand the conformity and the societal aspects in your post.

I also understand the compassion aspect in your answer.

My slight confusion about compassion is it being a precondition while the illusory concept making it be illusory (unreal) as well.

In other words, to use the jargon often used: is there a risk becoming "attached" to exhibitng compassion?

I don't think I am seeking an answer as much as just stating my confusion.

But this is very intriguing indeed.

Gravy, trying to be compassionate is a good thing, but the effort is an ego-driven one. That is not quite the same as BEING compassionate (or being compassion itself) without thinking of it, thinking only of the perspective and feellings of the other. One becomes compassionate not as a means to an end (e.g., going to heaven or achieving Nirvana) but as an end initself. The most striking thing about zen is its subtlety. Trying to be enlightened is an obstacle to being enlightened. Indeed, the most accurate theoretical or philosophical description of enlightenment is the greatest obstacle to its realization. As I understand it, zen has to do with very ordinary life and experience, not ideas ABOUT life and experience. It is the same life that unenlightened people have but without the prism of ego. WITHOUT ego you become your life, you ARE all things that you see, smell, hear, touch. WITH ego you become separate from them and they happen TO "you." The peace of being one with all the experiences of your life is profound but simple. When one is enlightened in this sense he does not HAVE something others lack; he lacks something others have, viz., the distorting prism of ego.
The Buddha himself said: "I have truly obtained nothing from complete, unexcelled, Enlightenment." How subtle: zen monks and laymen strive to obtain what they already have. The Rinzai school of zen encourages this vain effort (by means of the Koan method) until one finally gives up; the Soto school zen more gently encourages us to give up such efforts, to realize now through "passive awareness" (shikantaza) that we are already spiritually whole.

Hear, hear, JL! An excellent post indeed. Wish that I'd said that.

Fundamental to Buddhism is the problem of suffering, and how one can conquer suffering. Suffering arises from ego, the false notion of self. All of those things we humans call suffering and try so desperately to avoid are "bad", and all that mitigates from suffering is "good". If one thinks, speaks and behaves in a manner that causes suffering for themselves or others they have deepened the hold of suffering for all. That is to be avoided.

As JL has so eloquently said above, "trying" and behaving with some end in view only deepens the hold of the illusory self. That which perpetuates self and illusion is unlikely to do much toward mitigating suffering. The ways in which we think, speak and act have to be genuine and without elaborate justifications. If you have to consider what alms you should give, you've already debased them. The words that flow from your mouth without thought should never wound unintentionally, and our thoughts should be as clear as a mountain lake. How do you get to that state?

Pay attention to every moment. Leave the past behind, and let the future unfold without making judgements of it. Read JL's comments again, they are well worth reading several times.

thank you both for your posts. As you suggested, I read these, and read them again. In a way I find them liberating.

the idea of already being whole...the prism of ego...acting versus being...paying attention...koans and "passive awareness"...

and the mobius-like statement:
"Indeed, the most accurate theoretical or philosophical description of enlightenment is the greatest obstacle to its realization" hits the spot.

thanks again, and I may have other questions after these percolate....

Gravy, please take care not to attach to anything Ash or I say. They will become "philosophical" obstacles to the zen perspective. As Ash has stressed in many posts, just keep keenly but passively aware (i.e., without judgements) of your present, concrete, ever-changing life. Zen practice is this doing, not thinking. If you want good thinking, turn to philosophy.

JLN, I will make a mental note not to make a mental note. (kidding)

The villagers who were made of stone came to life when a shiny source of light appeared among them. They put ornaments around the light to identify it and highlight its various aspects, its importance and vitality ...soon the ornaments dimmed the light and they turned back into stone.

Yes, a characterization of the futility of trying to grasp Reality.

Wow, that was a very informative post Asherman.

I agree, thankyou all.

(Re-activating this thread).

If you go to Corazon and experience Ash's tea, you will at that moment--not at this moment thinking about it--experience zen. If not, stay where you are and drink your tea--same thing. But remember that zen is more about the actual nature of your life, not about virtual--or cognitive--constructions ABOUT it.
The most difficult thing is to learn to experience your life (which is the real you) each changing moment without cognitive interference. True, life is "meaningless" without the thoughts and categories we impose on it. But in those "pre-cognitive" moments of meaningless (immaculate) perceptions (of raw as opposed to cooked perceptions) we feel liberated--from the constraints of language, grammar, logic, convention. These moments are liberating and attained in those non-attaining moments of MEDITATION.

Flushed,

Its been a bit over six months since we've heard from you. How is your practice going?

All experience is meditation, don't waste it by thinking too hard.

Ash says: "All experience is meditation." You'll realize the truth of this statement when you have been meditating a while. You'll come to see (I say "see" not "think") that you ARE your experiences, that the sensations and things perceived are not objects happening to a subject (ego). You will see that they ARE you. You and the world you experience are one. You are not a subject surrounded by objects (this is a fantasy imposed, in part, by our grammar); you are experience itself. There's a zen saying: "All things enlighten me." I read this to say "All things show me who I am."
I generally feel a little guilty when I say things like this, as if they could really help someone. I remember in the 60s when, in Los Angeles, I used to go to the lectures and workshops of a magnificent popularizer of zen, Alan Watts. I would always come away drunk with his words--especially his metaphors--feeling a bit enlightened. But after time I felt a need to return to him or his books for another conceptual "fix."
These words and formulas were my "attachments." It took years before I could become "ignorant" of zen, of not holding it as a set of publicallly transmitable principles. It is in fact an intensely private and ineffable orientation--which I have to some degree only some of the time--and it is no longer "wonderful"; it is now "ordinary," very ordinary.
Or as Dyslexia might say in his impeccable Spanish: "[It} ain't no gran cosa." (But it's all there really is).

An indication of how zen exists apart from the conceptual life. Ash is a political conservative and I am a political liberal. We rarely agree in these forums on political matters. Yet we are in very close agreement when it comes to spiritual (don't misunderstand my use of this word) matters.

Well, first off, you two are great. I have a lot of gratitude for all the time spent building threads like these, and actually following up with us who are trying -yes, lots of trying yet - to learn something.
And get nods and jabs along the way (i don't know who else i would speak to in exactly this way).
So, thank you.

My practice is going well. Though I admit to doing precisely as predicted and being a cliche without intending to - at times, there would be some noticeable progress and I would stop.
And start. And stop. And now it is going a little more smoothly. More consistent.
Maybe I needed to do that. Who knows.

Have been keeping with the breathing meditation Asherman gave me.
At least, that is what i keep coming back to.

The reason for re-activating this thread is bc there is something that has been happening : all my meditations lately are Pain.
Really raw, raking through Pain.
Cry and cry, continue, cry more, feel like something is different - but what?

'I' feel weird. Feels like two seperate entities in me fighting: robot me, on automatic and terribly unhappy and dependent, and 'real me' , just living and able to feel like a 'normal' person without a million intrusions.

The basic precepts and things like: right action, right livelihood, right speech,....the stuff of actually living moment by moment differently ...there is finally some sense to it.

There's lots of attachments, lots of pain, lots of hate, lots of Violence!
My experience is Violence!

It sucks and holds and there is attachment to it too. HUGE attachment - don't yet see a better way or understand. Want to understand.

Help Please...if this makes any sense...
these experiences and cycles are so disabiling...how to crack it, get past it??

This is hard work. Some kindly encouragement, i suppose, is most welcome.

Flushd, if it helps, many people experience a lot of suppressed psychological "material"--anger and violent urges are among them. This is the result of letting down defenses. You might want to have a therapist work with you at this time. I think the combination of meditation and the guidance of a sympathetic therapist will permit you to make great leaps. By the way, in my early years of meditation (in the early sixties) I worked with a sympathetic therapist. It was good. I was young and had a lot of identity issues that surfaced with meditation.
Whatever you do, continue with your meditation. It is a wonderful form of mental hygiene.

It might be difficult to let go.

I'm struck by your references to pain, and your reaction to it. What sort of pain are you talking about? Is this a physical pain caused perhaps by your posture, or some physical stimuli, or is this an abstract pain that arises not so much from the body as from our consciousness? There are treatments that can minimalize physical pain, and if you have pain symptoms by all means treat them. The other sort of pain, lets call it instead suffering, is no less terrible and it can't easily be treated by any physical means. People who are empty seek to fill the void by acquiring things, staying busy, thinking great/terrible thoughts, and hundreds of other ways of distracting us from the roots of suffering.

Living in the world one can not escape seeing violence, pain and suffering. Some hopeless abandon themselves to seeing the world as beyond any hope of society ever becoming just, righteous, fair, and compassionate. We get caught up in the multiplicity things, we confuse idealism with the daily realities all people must endure.

Natalie has called me to dinner. Here is choice; eat a hot meal cooked to please my palate, or sit here talking about Buddhism. Which do you think is the better choice?

Right!

Now, where was I .... Oh, the fish were fine, and I always enjoy baked potatoes washed down with cold, cold water. Hmnn. Now that is a wonderful meal, and deserved to have my full attention. No errant thoughts about how the world is going to hell in a handbasket. No worries that civilization as we know it may be doomed later next week. Once I slipped, and wondered if there were new photos on line showing our new grandson, but I caught myself and returned my focus to the green beans. Who would not be poorer for missing the subtle flavor of butter and spices on a standard green bean?

Ah, but that is the past. It must stay in the past, or it would steal from the present, and the future might in turn be less that it might and should be.

Now, where was I ....

Oh yes, I'm very please to hear that you are trying to follow the injunctions of the Eight Fold Path. I hope you can appreciate the wisdom of the Buddha in avoiding proscriptive rules. We need to be constantly aware of our thoughts, words, and actions. We need attentively to weigh them, and ask what is "right" mean in this specific case. What is "right" may not always be the same, but fundamentally we can not go far wrong when our effort is directed to the mitigation of suffering.

The Eight Fold Path is the discipline laid by the Buddha upon the monks who followed him, renouncing the world the better to improve it by improving ourselves. We can not "save" people from their own foolishness, or bad habits. We can, however, work diligently to eradicate the most pernicious causes of suffering from our own lives. We can live in the moment. Life is good, enjoy it ... but don't be enslaved to it.

Keep to your practice. Pay attention. Guard and consider your thoughts, words and actions that they not contibute any more than necessary to the suffering of others.