Where is the US economy headed?

Finn, I don't see that as "getting the shaft." After all, our government are the ones who have committed our military bases all over Europe and the world. Most countries appreciated the simple fact that we were covering their arses with some security over all these decades while our country fought the cold war with Russia, China, and North Korea.

Maybe the Pentagon isn't getting the shaft, but taxpayers are.

In almost all cases when it comes to the wars after Korea.

You're quite right Finn, we are a bunch of ingrates. We should be grateful for the fact, that were there to have been a confrontation between the USA and the Soviet Union, the battleground would have been Europe, not the USA or the USSR.

Presumably you had a stake in the conflict.

But then maybe you believe Europe could have co-existed with the USSR in the absence of the US.

I didn't name anyone an ingrate, but if self-identify, so be it

Most likely Canada, we are between the two...

I think there were far more Russian tank battalions massed on their borders with Europe than anywhere near the Berring Straits. In any case they would have had to get through Alaska first.

You're quite right Finn, you never called anyone an ingrate, but you implied that others may not be so generous. Let's get one thing straight, by and large I think that America has been a force for good. That does not mean that the rest of us should have to constantly ethuse gratitude for American munificence.

Bill likes to point out how you Americans saved our 'asses,' (surely arses) during both WW1 and WW2, as if saving out collective bottoms was your overiding concern. If that was the case you would have entered the wars in 1914 and 1939 respectedly, you didn't. You acted in your own interests, (nothing wrong with that, we all do it,) but don't try to pretend that your motives were purely altruistic.

Similarly during the cold war, what we are talking about is primarily American global influence. If America were truly the leader of the free world then America would have championed freedom throughout the world, that didn't happen, America supported some pretty odious right-wing dictatorships in South America. In the 19th Century, we did the same thing, championing the work of missionaries, 'civilising' the 'dark continent' of Africa, whilst exploiting the mineral and other resources.

Look at the Cuban missile crisis, Kennedy took the world to the brink, because American cities were in danger of missile strikes from Cuba, but Soviet cities were already at risk from missile bases in Europe. If it had all of kicked off, Europe would have been hit first.

Maybe the Soviets would not have been so paranoid had it not been for the spectre of McCarthyism in the first place.

Even in contemporary times, our government approves trade with Equatorial Guinea where the president of that country steals from its people, and enriches themselves.

As generous as who?

I repeat my question: Do you think Europe could have peacefully co-existed with the USSR if the US had been absent?

If the answer is yes, then I can understand why you might feel as if the US put Europe in harm's way relative to the Soviets. You would be foolishly wrong, of course, but at least you would be consistent.

If on the other hand, you believe the USSR would have eventually overrun all of Europe if the US wasn't around or interested, then you should acknowledge that US bases was keeping Europe free and safe, rather then putting it in jeopardy.

No need to kowtow to America for it. Keeping the Russians at bay in Europe kept a war that much further from the US. It was certainly in our interests to defend you.

Why you feel compelled to throw in snarky and silly comments about McCarthy, and take objection to a claim I've never made: "The US has been an infallible champion of freedom throughout the world" is beyond me. Smacks of having a chip on your shoulder when it comes to the US.

Take up Bill's comments with Bill.

My point is that if the US is paying 75% or more for the expense of US bases in Europe, the American taxpayer is getting the shaft. If Europeans resent the presence of the bases, the shaft is that much more unpleasant.

Since there is no longer any strategic benefit to the US for maintaining the bases, if there is not some other consideration we are receiving from Europe, it's clearly a waste of my money.

I'm not suggesting the consideration should be public gratitude. That's hardly worth my tax dollars.

The simple question to answer is: What will Europe do if Ron Paul wins the presidency, or our financial woes force us to drastically reduce defense spending?

The first and best way to save money is to pull out of Europe (let us worry about what we'll do with the returning soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen).

Will Europe feel compelled to redirect any of it's funds to defense?

If not, fine...all the more reason for us to pull out our forces. If it would have to spend more money on defense, then it's getting a pretty good deal right now.

I don't blame you for getting the best deal you can

Ya, but the long range missiles fired from home would have gone straight over head. Then there is the fallout... The arctic ocean sort of separates us.

I know.

It really was a shame that Canadians had to feel in peril, because like Europe, Canada had nothing to fear from the Soviets absent America's militarism.

Good thing it worked out OK though.

I'm not getting into a pissing match, I'm just calling it like I remember it. Growing up between the two of you wasn't always comfortable, knowing y'all had the bomb...

Well many Americans wanted to stay out of WWII. Polls conducted early in 1941 confirmed the overwhelming majority here had bad memories of our role in WWI and the "peace that followed it, and strongly wished to stay out of the second war, even as Hitler was threatening Britain and Japan was expanding its Empire in the Pacific at the expense of China and the Dutch, French, and British Empires.

Our entry into WWII after the Japanese attcak pretty much doomed us to the confrontation with the USSR that followed the war. Churchill chose to make the Soviets an ally of necessity (even though they, in complicity with Hitler, joined in the dismemberment of Poland and seized the Baltic nations, just two years earlier).

After the war the USSR crushed the democratic governments of Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary, installing their own cadres in power, just as they had already done in Romania and Bulgaria, and, maintaining enormous armies in eastern Germany, repeatedly threatened to invade Western Europe. Our actions to restore the economies of western Europe and aid in their defense were pretty popular then.

During the rapid economic recovery in Europe that started in 1949, I'm sure it became very easy for Europeans to assume we were there only for selfish motives and to wish that both we and the Soviets would just disappear - more or less in the same way you described Canada as sitting innocently between warring giants. However, the fact is that had we stayed out of it all (WWII) we would have been better off, while Europe would have been destroyed by warring tyrannies. (We did have such an option - we could have made war on Japan, but simply ignored Germany.)

I am merely bemused by European (and Canadian) complaints that we were both late getting into the war and solely responsible for the inevitable confrontation with the USSR that followed it. However self-serving critics rarely concern themselves with consistency.

George, while I don't appreciate your (yet again) sarcastic revisionist history lesson on WWII, it might interest you to know that I was not talking about the war but post war activity. And while you all conducted a poll, our boys were fighting and dying years before you entered the fray. Is this where I'm supposed to thank-you for not speaking German?
Again, while your president held his finger over the big red button, and the crazy fuckers in the kremlin did they same, growing up, knowing we were between you, didn't give me much comfort.
Terribly sorry to hurt your patriotic sensibilities, but your government didn't give me the warm fuzzies. I highly doubt that either side would have given a **** if a errant missile misfired and blew up over Canada.
While you were all running around in a McCarthesque freakshow, screaming the commies are coming, the commies are coming and ducking under desks to save yourselves from the oncoming Red attack, and promoting your version of democracy by war, we were proudly becoming peace keepers. Any wonder a nation sandwiched between two dangerous ideologies did this?
Shove that shrillness up your tight little sphincter...

Little tiny(in population) country sheltering in our shadow and then complaining about it after the danger is over.

I can see you guys in the future getting into a military conflict with the Russian over oil in the Arctic and then coming crying to us to back you up.

Little dog being very brave in confronting the big bad bear with the US to back you up.

Look the illiterate idiot showed up!! Woo hoo.
We wont be crying you dumb ****, you'll be in the fight because you want to be, compelled to be, not because you give a **** about us, but because you're the biggest users of Canadian oil.

Sorry but we could buy the oil off the Russian just as well as we could from you.

And we are not talking about your oil shale but the games you are now playing with the bear over oil resources in the Arctic.

Acting like you have big balls because you are counting on us to back you up when we have no dog in the game.

We don't have to resort to war. That's your tactic, not ours. In fact the only war we've ever started ended with the defeat of the Americans. There are several other means at our disposal. Diplomacy is one method, or is that too foreign of an idea for your wee little brain? Are you suggesting the Ruskies are going to invade us? Do you have any concept of the Arctic region. Canada is in contention with Denmark and the US as well, do you see this coming to blows? anytime soon?
If you could buy oil from Russia, why don't you? Many countries would happily buy our supply...

My my you are selling your oil to the US because you love us and not at full world market prices how nice of you!!!!!!!!!!!

An you are playing showing the flag warships games with the Russians and only because you have or think you have our backing.