114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 10:33 am
@Cycloptichorn,
When you corner a rat, they run away. Thats nature.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 10:50 am
I don't think that anyone could fault the Obama Administration for failing to put forward a plethora of "new ideas" for "solving" the challenges before us and many other problems we didn't know we had as well. The problem is their nostrums and remedies are generally worse for our economy than the problems they are desiigned to solve.

The typical stance of progressives in response to any problem is more government control, less individual action and responsibility; more taxes and government spending and less private enterprise; more government-directed allocation of capital and resources and less free market activity. Republicans generally value less government action and more individual freedom and responsibility. The bias here towards government programs is profound and fundamental, and because Democrats have created so many such programs, Cyclo is simply playing a game only he can win. The problem of course is that most of these programs not only fail to achieve their intended purpose, but also add enormously to our public debt and creade a host of adverse side effects.

The recent bankrupcy of Solyndra, the recipient of more than $500 million in government guaranteed loans (for which taxpayers will pick up the tab) is merely an illustration. Solyndra was part of the vanguard of the supposed new "Green Economy" that Van Jones was going to direct to favored parts of the population, and which the administration has helped financed, and it is only the latest in a series of bankrupcies among them. Given the fundamental economics of the energy industry this was an entirely predictable result. It takes a zealous doctrinaire progressive believer to predict success in nthe face of so much fact. Unfortunately for us all they have wasted too much of our money to be allowed to play with it any longer.

Cyclo will no doubt trot out his claims for the many jobs "created or saved" by the last "stimulus", happily hiding behind a carefully crafted unprovable hypothesis. Unfortunately even using his supposed "data" each job cost taxpayers about $300,000.

I believe yesterday's outcome of the election in New York was an ominous indicator for this failed Administration. Happily we wiill likely be rid of them in 16 months or so.

Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 10:57 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I don't think that anyone could fault the Obama Administration for failing to put forward a plethora of "new ideas" for "solving" the challenges before us and many other problems we didn't know we had as well. The problem is their nostrums and remedies are generally worse for our economy than the problems they are desiigned to solve.


There's very little evidence that what you say here is true. For the two largest pieces of legislation - the ACA and the ARRA - there is a great deal of evidence that the policies were indeed effective and, in the case of the ACA, will continue to be effective in the future. The vast majority of economists agree that both of these programs are having a beneficial effect. You never really address this point in your various criticisms of the programs, which is sort of telling.

Quote:
The problem of course is that most of these programs not only fail to achieve their intended purpose, but also add enormously to our public debt and creade a host of adverse side effects.


Totally false. No program proposed by Dems has added as much to our debt as the wars and tax cuts pushed by Republicans. And, I might add, Medicare D, pushed by Republicans - that's the one Okie should have mentioned, but didn't.

Good luck on getting rid of Obama with the **** candidates your side is running - and with the fact that the public largely supports the legislation Obama is currently pushing, and trusts him more than the GOP on matters economic, even given our poor situation. Even years later, majorities of those polled still place the blame for the recession on Bush and the Republicans, because people can see that years of cutting regulations and not giving two shits what businesses are doing are what led to the crash; advocating more of the same, which is what you constantly do, isn't going to get a Republican in the WH.

Cycloptichorn
woiyo
 
  0  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 10:59 am
@Cycloptichorn,
"No program proposed by Dems has added as much to our debt as the wars and tax cuts pushed by Republicans.".

So what you are suggesting is that the Democrats suck less then the republicans?

How refreshing !
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:00 am
@woiyo,
woiyo wrote:

"No program proposed by Dems has added as much to our debt as the wars and tax cuts pushed by Republicans.".

So what you are suggesting is that the Democrats suck less then the republicans?

How refreshing !


It is refreshing, indeed, to point that out. And in fact, historically, the greatest periods of economic expansion fall under Dem administrations.

Cycloptichorn
woiyo
 
  0  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:09 am
@Cycloptichorn,
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/economics/ChartImg.axd?i=chart_851e2b345dc94ce5b23793b39814848a_84.png&g=fdc4747504464bf7b00bcc9da42dad63

Still touting the old party line.

Economic Growth covered both parties over the years.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:12 am
@woiyo,
The chart you linked to was something about Bangladesh.

I can't speak as to Bangladesh, but here in America, the largest job growth and economic expansions have occurred under Dem administrations. And the historical average for Dems is far higher than for Republicans.

http://www.bizinformer.com/wp-content/uploads/privatejobgrowth.jpg

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:27 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
You never really address this point in your various criticisms of the programs, which is sort of telling.


And you have failed to respond to repeated requests to define "work" and "job". Which is very telling. It means that such things are abstract concepts to you as they are with most socialists and amateur social engineers.

There's no sorting the livers out in the abbatoir for you is there Cyclo. Or cleaning the bogs. What's your own job like?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:29 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
You never really address this point in your various criticisms of the programs, which is sort of telling.


And you have failed to respond to repeated requests to define "work" and "job". Which is very telling.


Telling of what? That I lack patience for your stream of piss? I do agree with that.

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:31 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Avoidance blurting and obviously so. A tender species of Ignore.
woiyo
 
  0  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:32 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Darn Computers !!

http://seekingalpha.com/article/62350-historical-gdp-numbers-1947-present
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:33 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Avoidance blurting and obviously so. A tender species of Ignore.


I don't understand what this means. Maybe if I had a drink or two first...

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:34 am
@Cycloptichorn,
It wouldn't be so bad Cyclo if you did define these terms the way you must do because if you did you might have a chance of helping a socialist agenda to get real. As it is one might suspect that you need 9.1% unemployment in order to have something to spout about.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:36 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Good luck on getting rid of Obama with the **** candidates your side is running - and with the fact that the public largely supports the legislation Obama is currently pushing, and trusts him more than the GOP on matters economic, even given our poor situation. Even years later, majorities of those polled still place the blame for the recession on Bush and the Republicans, because people can see that years of cutting regulations and not giving two shits what businesses are doing are what led to the crash; advocating more of the same, which is what you constantly do, isn't going to get a Republican in the WH.

Cycloptichorn


This is probably a keeper - not because of the totally unnecessary but typically angry personalization of the issues, but rather for comparison with what actually happens in November 2012.

"hey I know I'm right and I have a poll somewhere (if I could only find it) that proves it ....."
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:38 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I don't understand what this means.


I very much doubt that intelligent readers here will have had difficulty in understanding what I meant.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:41 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

spendius wrote:

Avoidance blurting and obviously so. A tender species of Ignore.


I don't understand what this means. Maybe if I had a drink or two first...

Cycloptichorn



I think the meaning was very clear. You were avoiding the issue at hand and merely blurting out loudly as a distraction, and is was all easy for Spendi to ignore.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:42 am
@georgeob1,
Wouldn't you agree that the policies you are pushing are essentially the exact same ones that Republicans have for years? The same policies and philosophies that Republicans used to govern for 8 years under Bush? I don't know why you think that these policies are suddenly going to become popular.

You're awful cock-sure these days, George. But I think it's a false front, given the evidence against your position. Just as you never admit that the majority of economists disagree with your positions on things like the ARRA, you don't admit that the general public disagrees with your policy preferences, disagrees with your assessment of Obama, and still places the majority of the blame for our financial problems square on the shoulders of your party.

Do you honestly ignore these data points, or simply choose not to discuss possible weaknesses in your case?

Quote:

"hey I know I'm right and I have a poll somewhere (if I could only find it) that proves it ....."


Infinitely superior to the absolute lack of proof you ever provide for anything, George. Infinitely so.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:43 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

spendius wrote:

Avoidance blurting and obviously so. A tender species of Ignore.


I don't understand what this means. Maybe if I had a drink or two first...

Cycloptichorn



I think the meaning was very clear. You were avoiding the issue at hand and merely blurting out loudly as a distraction, and is was all easy for Spendi to ignore.


I don't understand what, exactly, is the underlying issue he's asking about. There's no need to define 'jobs' or 'work' to have a discussion about the US economy; it's just typical Spendi bullshit, that I have no patience for.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 11:59 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:


You're awful cock-sure these days, George. But I think it's a false front, given the evidence against your position. Just as you never admit that the majority of economists disagree with your positions on things like the ARRA, you don't admit that the general public disagrees with your policy preferences, disagrees with your assessment of Obama, and still places the majority of the blame for our financial problems square on the shoulders of your party.
Do you speak for "the majority of economists"? Some vbery broad and far-reaching assertions here, and nothing but your loud boastful assertions to back them up. Moreover, I'm not aware that in academic circles the majority rules in the long run. Galileo demonstrated that.


Cycloptichorn wrote:


Quote:

"hey I know I'm right and I have a poll somewhere (if I could only find it) that proves it ....."


Infinitely superior to the absolute lack of proof you ever provide for anything, George. Infinitely so.

Cycloptichorn


You demonstrate an indequate understanting of infinity. In fact my characterization quoted above is indeed an accurate parody of your usual response ... and the one you have used here above. You make reference to your invisible proofs far more often than you really offer anything concrete. You also rely too much on the propaganda of like minded others and too little on your own analysis. Do you so assiduously accept such arguments from authority in every aspect of your life? Do you think for yourself at all?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2011 12:14 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:


You're awful cock-sure these days, George. But I think it's a false front, given the evidence against your position. Just as you never admit that the majority of economists disagree with your positions on things like the ARRA, you don't admit that the general public disagrees with your policy preferences, disagrees with your assessment of Obama, and still places the majority of the blame for our financial problems square on the shoulders of your party.
Do you speak for "the majority of economists"? Some vbery broad and far-reaching assertions here, and nothing but your loud boastful assertions to back them up. Moreover, I'm not aware that in academic circles the majority rules in the long run. Galileo demonstrated that.


They don't need me to speak for them, George. They have been saying the same thing themselves, but you simply ignore it.

Viz:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-08-30-stimulus30_CV_N.htm




Quote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:


Quote:

"hey I know I'm right and I have a poll somewhere (if I could only find it) that proves it ....."


Infinitely superior to the absolute lack of proof you ever provide for anything, George. Infinitely so.

Cycloptichorn


You demonstrate an indequate understanting of infinity. In fact my characterization quoted above is indeed an accurate parody of your usual response ... and the one you have used here above. You make reference to your invisible proofs far more often than you really offer anything concrete. You also rely too much on the propaganda of like minded others and too little on your own analysis. Do you so assiduously accept such arguments from authority in every aspect of your life? Do you think for yourself at all?


I think for myself at all times, and far more than you seem to. None of your thoughts on matters economic can be called 'original' - they are all boilerplate Republican party line ideas - and I quite often read things written in the WSJ or National Review, only to see you parrot the exact same points here the next day.

Cycloptichorn
 

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