114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2011 03:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
Now if I only had my eight gold coins back that I sold in the 1980s.

Of course you could earn or lose more money in days by investing in bitcoins instead.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2011 04:40 pm
Gold Hits $1910.

That is all.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2011 08:27 pm
@hawkeye10,
If the world economies collapses, what value will gold have? You sure can't eat gold as a food source.

Who will accept gold as payment for anything? How?

How does any business make change for one ounce of gold as payment for a $50 item? How does anyone value any increment of the one ounce of gold?
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2011 08:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Gold is useful in jewel and some electronic and that is it.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2011 08:34 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Gold is useful in jewel and some electronic and that is it.
Dollars are kinda OK for bonfires, but I bet that the ink smoke causes cancer....
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2011 08:53 pm
@hawkeye10,
However you can pay your taxes and other government debt with that paper Hawkeye.

In any case paper money is just a symbol of worth and you can at least pay your taxes to Caesar with it.

Now I handle only a few dollars a months as almost all my bills paying and buying is done cash free and mostly with internet IP packets.

The next step is new encrypted untraceable digits currency such as bitcoins.

Gold bars indeed................


0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2011 09:45 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
To illustrate, the last stimulus package didn't produce significant construction activity at all. Instead it merely delayed constructive action in state governments to address their already excessive levels of debt, thereby making these interlocking problems worse.


Keynesian economists have said from the beginning that President-elect Obama's stimulus package was grossly inadequate, given the size of the output gap and the contraction in state spending. The failure of the stimulus didn't come as a surprise to them, though it did come as a surprise to Obama's inner circle, who had deluded itself about the magnitude of the problem they had inherited.

This self-delusion also causd the now-admitted dearth of shovel-ready projects today. President-elect Obama was convinced---against the advice of Christie Romer, Larry Summers, and the rest of his economic team---that the economy was in a temporary glitch, and that there wasn't much point in creating new shovel-ready projects for 2010 and after. The reasoning was that spending on these projects wouldn't be needed anymore by the time it kicked in, and that they would only overheat an already-hot economy. (I can go back and dig out the articles published at the time, but I'm too lazy to do it without being asked.)

I think you and I agree that President Obama lives in a bubble of self-delusion that poses a grave danger for the US, even for the world. But we disagree about the object of this delusion. In my opinion, it's too much happy-talk, too little action. It is timidity rather than overconfidence about stimulus. Romer, Summers, and every other economist with the stature to pierce the bubble, have given up on Obama and left his administration. I am not a happy camper.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 12:26 am
@hawkeye10,
Gold is not wealth without any goods or services - but especially for food and water.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 12:31 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Gold is not wealth without any goods or services - but especially for food and water.
I am betting that if I had a American Gold Eagle coin that I could trade it for a good amount of food and water anytime anywhere on the planet.....With dollars or an ATM card maybe I could, maybe I could not.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 02:54 am
The experts are in agreement.....we are pretty well fucked

ECONOMICS NOBEL PRIZE WINNERS AGREE: U.S., EUROPE SLIDING INTO 'LOST DECADE'

Seventeen winners of the Nobel Prize for economics are gathered this week on Lindau, an island in Germany’s Lake Constance. Die Welt asked the laureates for their take on the ongoing debt crisis and the splintering of the euro zone. The bad news is they all seem to agree.

Quote:
LINDAU -- If politicians don’t get a handle on it soon, the debt crisis will be a game-changer for the whole Western system. The economies of the United States and Europe will face years of stagnation and decline with regard to emerging nations in Asia and Latin America. In fact, the Euro Zone might break apart.
These are some of the views received by Die Welt received in answer to questions it put to 17 winners of the Nobel Prize for economics who are gathered this week for the Nobel Laureate Meetings at Lindau, an island in Lake Constance.
These wisest of men, brought together to discuss pressing world problems, are calling on political leaders to show courage and leadership so they can win back credibility in the eyes of consumers, business leaders and financial markets. Only confidence in the stability of the system can prompt an urgently needed reboot. The core issue, according to the laureates, is nothing less than the continued dominance of Western ideals that have shaped the world order since the Industrial Revolution.
Edmund Phelps, a Colombia University professor who won the prize in 2006 for his theory on growth, says that during the past decades the West has lived above its means and in so doing has already consumed part of its future. That means that the United States, but also Europe now face a long period of stagnation.
Phelps says the West has to pay for the mistakes of the past, but if it can get back on track rapidly, recovery can start that much faster and the mistakes will take less of a toll. He considers the political system to be the greatest problem. In the United States, political parties are busy putting spokes in each others’ wheels, while leaders in Europe have managed to create a system of perverted incentives with banks and insurers having to hold government bonds and governments exceeding agreed-on debt ceilings. Phelps says politicians need to show both more courage and a greater sense of responsibility, facing the fact that they are going to have to be the bearers of bad news -- such as tax hikes -- to their citizens.
Is stagnation here to stay?
Other laureates also see the debt crisis as responsible for the terrible state of the economy. To Eric Maskin, government debt addiction is ruining the Western system and if politicians don’t wake up and act quickly economic turbulence can be expected to go on for years.
James Mirrlees, who won his Nobel Prize for political economics research, rates the chances that the Western world will be facing a long period of stagnation as “very high.” Myron Scholes agrees, adding that both the United States and Europe are looking at a fate similar to Japan’s lost decade if the present muddling continues.
Credibility and decisiveness are of the essence to solve the European debt crisis, and Germany’s role is pivotal. Maskin says that the euro zone only stands a chance of long-term survival if a central fiscal system is introduced, while financial market expert Scholes is more optimistic about the zone’s chances of holding together, though not in its present configuration. A currency union with a central bank and 17 independently acting finance ministers cannot survive, he argues. Taxation would need to be centralized, transfers made possible, and in the short term, the European Central Bank should lower bank rates and continue to buy government bonds.
Laureates Daniel McFadden and John Nash believe the future of the euro zone is mainly dependent on Germany, and that Germany should understand that such a zone is in its interests. Weaker members would need to be removed, and in the longer term, Europe will have to build up a stable fiscal system that makes effective control possible, McFadden says. Nash, known to many through the film “A Beautiful Mind,” says: “Where there’s a will, there’s a way.” The euro zone stands a chance, he says, if all club members work really hard to keep it together.
In one respect, the laureates feel that a decline of the West is already sealed: regardless of all and any political decisions that may be taken, the dominance of the dollar as the world’s reserve currency will fade. Its leading role will decline progressively over the coming decades.
The economists see this as inevitable, like the devaluation of the British pound in the 20th century. They unanimously agree that the Chinese yuan will gain in stature. Unlike the others, game theorist Nash is also betting on a “super ruble,” while Edward Prescott sees opportunities for gold.
To save the Western system and its values, the laureates suggest better coordination among governments. Stronger institutions are needed to achieve results. And McFadden says that the United Nations cannot fulfill the role -- in his view, it doesn’t have the support, nor does it enjoy the respect or clout, to do so

http://www.worldcrunch.com/economics-nobel-prize-winners-agree-us-europe-sliding-lost-decade/3627

I am not an expert, but I also agree....
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 04:54 am
@hawkeye10,
It seems rubbish to me hawk. They obviously haven't read Spengler's Decline of the West.

I suppose that if you have a Nobel prize for economics it is expected that you will say something about it all whether it makes any sense or not.

I imagine that boozing and shagging were the main items on the agenda in Lindau.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 07:49 am
Quote:
News flash: Congressional Republicans want to raise your taxes.

Impossible, right? GOP lawmakers are so virulently anti-tax, surely they will fight to prevent a payroll tax increase on virtually every wage-earner starting Jan. 1, right?

Apparently not.

Many of the same Republicans who fought hammer-and-tong to keep the George W. Bush-era income tax cuts from expiring on schedule are now saying a different "temporary" tax cut should end as planned. By their own definition, that amounts to a tax increase.

The tax break extension they oppose is sought by President Barack Obama. Unlike proposed changes in the income tax, this policy helps the 46 percent of all Americans who owe no federal income taxes but who pay a "payroll tax" on practically every dime they earn.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44218846/ns/politics/

Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 08:38 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Gold is not wealth without any goods or services - but especially for food and water.

You're correct. Gold is only a medium that you exchange for the things you really want. If those things aren't produced anymore, your gold is worth very little. You are recalling an economic insight as ancient as the fable of King Midas, first published by Ovid in the year AD 8.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 08:41 am
@revelette,
I was confused on who Obama is, and now nobody knows what the GOP represents.

Is this a new era in American politics?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 08:44 am
@hawkeye10,
The US dollar Hawkeye is still the reserve currency of the world so I do not think that you would have too many problems with using dollars most anywhere in the world.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 08:58 am
@Thomas,
It's the paradox of why are diamonds more expensive than water; nobody needs diamonds to survive, everybody needs water. The solution wasn't found until the 19th century. But for the real US - eurozone - China - rest of the world money v. gold problems causing all this massive uncertainty in financial valuations look up this summary at the Lindau Economics Nobel conference. Anyone interested in looking more deeply into topic can use the free 1-month subscription to Central Banking and Risk magazines where the longer version of the above was published yesterday (no link there, it's subscription only)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currency Wars, Euro-Mania and the Price of Gold

This paper reviews the evolution of international monetary phenomenon over the past century and makes the case for restoring an international monetary system anchored to a stable global currency. It argues that since the Bretton Woods System broke down in 1971, the international economy has experienced crises of a frequency and severity not seen in centuries. The oil crises of the 1970s, the savings and loan and international debt crises of the 1980s, the Asian Crisis of the 1990s, and the crisis fiascos of 2007-9 were all strongly affected if not caused by huge swings of major currencies.
The sub-prime mortgage crisis of 2007 was transformed into the great panic of the third quarter of 2008 by tight money, reflected in the soaring dollar, collapsing price of oil, steep fall in the gold price and the dramatic collapse of the change in the U.S. consumer price index from 5.5% in June 2008 to 0% in December to negative in the first half of 2009. The soaring dollar aggravated the downturn in the housing market and chased foreign suitors of the failing banks away. When Lehman went bankrupt, confidence was shattered, credit markets dried up and trillions of dollars of bailout money did not restore equilibrium.
The Sarkozy Proposals for reform of the international monetary system have addressed three problems: the instability of raw material prices, the instability of major exchange rates and the need for improved governance of the system. This critique is correct in my view and could be addressed if the dollar-euro rate were stabilized within limits with monetary coordination between the Fed and the ECB. The stabilization could be achieved with each country supporting the other countries currency at its lower bound. China could join the group to make it a triad, the DEY, which could be designated for a renewable period of ten years as the anchor for a global currency in which all IMF members are included.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.lindau-nobel.org/AbstractDetails.AxCMS?AbstractID=1290
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 09:34 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
To illustrate, the last stimulus package didn't produce significant construction activity at all. Instead it merely delayed constructive action in state governments to address their already excessive levels of debt, thereby making these interlocking problems worse.


Keynesian economists have said from the beginning that President-elect Obama's stimulus package was grossly inadequate, given the size of the output gap and the contraction in state spending. The failure of the stimulus didn't come as a surprise to them, though it did come as a surprise to Obama's inner circle, who had deluded itself about the magnitude of the problem they had inherited.

This self-delusion also causd the now-admitted dearth of shovel-ready projects today. President-elect Obama was convinced---against the advice of Christie Romer, Larry Summers, and the rest of his economic team---that the economy was in a temporary glitch, and that there wasn't much point in creating new shovel-ready projects for 2010 and after. The reasoning was that spending on these projects wouldn't be needed anymore by the time it kicked in, and that they would only overheat an already-hot economy. (I can go back and dig out the articles published at the time, but I'm too lazy to do it without being asked.)

I think you and I agree that President Obama lives in a bubble of self-delusion that poses a grave danger for the US, even for the world. But we disagree about the object of this delusion. In my opinion, it's too much happy-talk, too little action. It is timidity rather than overconfidence about stimulus. Romer, Summers, and every other economist with the stature to pierce the bubble, have given up on Obama and left his administration. I am not a happy camper.

As I think you know, I am not persuaded that Keynes himself would advocate the high levels of deficit spending advocated by Krugman and others, in tha case of a country with public & private debt levels as great as ours, and facing the growing international competitive challenges we do, even to address the economic consequences of a combined collapsing asset bubble and cyclic recession, such as faced us in 2008.

About 40% of the stimulus package was in the form of grants, chiefly to state highway and environmental agencies to continue or expand their contracting activities. Apparently we agree the expanded contracting didn't occur, and that the short-term stimulative effect that resulted was very small at best. I believe you imply that the chief fault was the effort was far too small. I, however, believe a larger tranche of borrowed money might have itself involved long-term financial risks far greater than any short term gains. Further, I didn't see any focus on the creation of new infrastructure assets or the creation of new policies that would yield lasting economic efficiencies or benefits at all. Indeed it was merely an act of scattering borrowed money around to politically favored beneficiaries in a way that would reinforce their delusions that they could continue milking a failing economy without either restraint or rethinking the challenges before them. (That is an aspect of the issue that most self-styled Keynesians often ignore.)

I do believe that some level of stimulus spending combined with serious efforts to create a lasting new synthesis of the often contradictory environmental & economic investment challenges before us, as well as some serious thought about labor productivity in both government and the private sector, might have yielded sone significant lasting economic benefits. Unfortunately the opposite occurred. The administration appears bent on increasing the conflicts between environmentalism and its favored labor organizations concerning needed actions for economic development that might benefit everyone.

It is bemusing to note the determination of the Canadians to develop their tar sands petroleum resources, while we fret about either buying them or developing our own extensive gas and petroleum resources.

As a nation we appear to lack focus and understanding on the trade-offs before us. The world is still a competitive place, and history provides many examples of the fate of refined dominant powers that failed to respond to the contradictions before them.
cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 09:45 am
@High Seas,
I disagree; the conversion value of the two currencies is not the problem. It's the unequal distribution of wealth favoring the rich over the middle class and the poor. If the middle class and poor had gained income at a reasonable rate, consumer spending and savings would have stabilized the economies of most developed countries. The other issue of concern is the amount of debt all levels have government have accumulated over this same period. I believe these are the two major issues that have crippled our economy.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 10:05 am
@cicerone imposter,
Our wealth has never been distributed equally. Neither was that of the happy folks in the former Soviet Union.

In any event, what do you suppose were the causes of the wide disparity in wealth and the very high levels of public debt that have developed lately? Perhaps those causes are the real isues.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2011 10:53 am
@georgeob1,
Having the major wealth holders paying less and less in supporting the society may just be the cause of the public debt increasing.

How did this happen? We had allow the riches and the army of lobbies that work for them to buy our congress.
0 Replies
 
 

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