Where is the US economy headed?

@realjohnboy,

Quote:

I am not at all in favor of using the SOR to manipulate prices, and I think Obama and Bush and others resisted doing that.

Until the demand from Congress to do something about the speculators got to be too much to ignore. Bernie Sanders has of late been on the War Path about this issue, amongst others.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

Quote:

However, I have a hard time understanding your position on the matter at hand: you appear to oppose a bailout for the banks, but want one for the Greeks.

Actually, I oppose bailing either of them out. That would REALLY be the solution, if one believed in moral hazard.

I'm not suffused with sympathy for the Greek people - they long knew these problems existed and did nothing to solve them, as long as they personally got theirs. It's not their entitlement state which CAUSED the issue so much as their predilection for not paying taxes, and not caring when people get caught not paying taxes, and allowing certain candidates to literally buy elections.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Actually, I oppose bailing either of them out. That would REALLY be the solution, if one believed in moral hazard.

But saving two automakers who according to capitalism should die and in the process giving the UAW a sweat heart deal, THAT you like in spite of the message it sends on moral hazard.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Sorry for the redundancy on the SPR factoids. At least we came up with the same data.
Another explanation - which I find somewhat plausible - is that the IEA wanted to let OPEC know that their refusal earlier in June to increase production following the Libya shutdown (1.2M barrels) didn't mean that the oil consuming countries were over the barrel.
This doesn't quite work for me, though, since Saudi Arabia was supposedly working on a deal.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Actually, I oppose bailing either of them out. That would REALLY be the solution, if one believed in moral hazard.
But saving two automakers who according to capitalism should die and in the process giving the UAW a sweat heart deal, THAT you like in spite of the message it sends on moral hazard.

Yes, because - and I've always been clear about this - the consequences to us would have been dire - for our country. And, before you go into the reasons why you disagree, let me say pre-emptively that you're full of **** and wrong.

Other big difference is that this bailout doesn't save the Greek people - they are screwed either way. It ONLY saves the banks. Why should they (The Greek people) agree to that? These banks were willing accomplices, along with their corrupt government, in creating the entire mess.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@realjohnboy,

realjohnboy wrote:

Sorry for the redundancy on the SPR factoids. At least we came up with the same data.
Another explanation - which I find somewhat plausible - is that the IEA wanted to let OPEC know that their refusal earlier in June to increase production following the Libya shutdown (1.2M barrels) didn't mean that the oil consuming countries were over the barrel.
This doesn't quite work for me, though, since Saudi Arabia was supposedly working on a deal.

OPEC wealth funds and oil companies are some of the most active oil market thieves, when governments send a message to speculators they are sending a message to OPEC as well. OPEC tries to keep oil supplies in the sweat spot, just enough to go around so that no one goes with out so that the economic activity is not harmed, but scarce enough that the price goes sky high. Because of our addiction to OPEC oil we cant do anything about this, but the West can make its displeasure known. I assume that OPEC rulers find this Amusing.

As an aside, I was shocked to see the europe has signed natural gas contracts with Russia that pegs the price at crude oil benchmarks. The extent that a couple of oil markets have control on our global economy is stunning....a stunningly stupid.

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@realjohnboy,

Quote:

The IEA's announcement to release 60 million barrels of oil from reserves in the U.S. (30M), Europe (18M) and other countries (12M) over the next 2 and a half months caught everyone by surprise. The official explanation is that the IEA feels the need to replace the lost production from Libya. I listened to or read from pundits and heard close to a half a dozen explanations and put bits and pieces from a couple of them to come up with my theory.

60 million barrels will last until about Saturday afternoon, maybe early evening, I'm not an expert, at which time the same pressure which caused the giant ejaculation will still exist and might even have been increased.

What's your theory rjb? Big Ears wobbling?? Worrying about Greece as a type of distraction, or even a voluntary repression mechanism similar to the Ignore feature on A2K but all prettied up to look intellectual.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendi, You shouldn't be posting on topics you have very knowledge on; releasing 60m bbls of oil doesn't mean all of it will be used within the next day or two; it's in addition to the oil being imported. It adds to the supply.

Try to grasp that in your brain if you can.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
However, I have a hard time understanding your position on the matter at hand: you appear to oppose a bailout for the banks, but want one for the Greeks.

Actually, I oppose bailing either of them out. That would REALLY be the solution, if one believed in moral hazard.

I'm not suffused with sympathy for the Greek people - they long knew these problems existed and did nothing to solve them, as long as they personally got theirs. It's not their entitlement state which CAUSED the issue so much as their predilection for not paying taxes, and not caring when people get caught not paying taxes, and allowing certain candidates to literally buy elections.

Cycloptichorn

We generally agree ... goddamn ! The Greek problem appears to be the result of chronic deficits for several decades that were abetted by various schemes to hide the facts of it from both the people and the EU - very likely done by politicians who wanted to curry public favor as you suggest. It is merely in keeping with your prejudices to suppose that this was the exclusive result of fat cats evading taxes, but I doubt that you really know that is true. The available reports all point to that, as well as an inflated government bureaucracy that accounts for too much of the country's GDP; high social welfare payments - higher at least than they could afford; and a less-than-Teutonic work ethic among the population.

As far as I am concerned it is up to the donor governments (and the people who elect them ) whether they help Greece at all, or, if they do, how they go about it. It's their money, and if they choose to bail out their banks and let them keep buying Greek bonds as a way of containing the problem, that is OK with me.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

Quote:

As far as I am concerned it is up to the donor governments (and the people who elect them ) whether they help Greece at all, or, if they do, how they go about it. It's their money, and if they choose to bail out their banks and let them keep buying Greek bonds as a way of containing the problem, that is OK with me.

The Greeks are like a homeowner who is so underwater on their mortgage that they have no reason to suspect that they will come out ahead during their lifetime. They are going to stop sending in the checks at some point.

The EU has good reason to allow the Greeks to do an organized default, the first of which is default is a 100% certainty, the other is the there is a limit to how much austerity the people will stand. Europe is already making a hard turn to the right, and we have seen over the last 10 years a disturbing about of radicalism from some segments of the population, which is sure to continue to grow. The bankers and politicians dont have the option of dealing with the Greeks or anyone else with a blanket "**** them, they owe and they need to pay"....because at the end of the day they dont need to pay. They also dont need to keep those in power in their positions.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Using your example of the Greek banks being willing accomplices, why did you support the bailout of banks here in the US? After all, weren't they also willing accomplices in the financial problems and mortgage problems in this country?
It seems to me that you are applying a double standard.

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@mysteryman,

It's not the same; not even close!

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@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Using your example of the Greek banks being willing accomplices, why did you support the bailout of banks here in the US? After all, weren't they also willing accomplices in the financial problems and mortgage problems in this country?
It seems to me that you are applying a double standard.

Politics and economics are complex things, so let's make sure we're talking about the same thing here. When you say 'bailout the banks,' what were you referring to? Specifically.

I ask, because the answer to this question will help me explain to you the rather large differences between the situation you are talking about, and the current Greek crisis.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cyclo, Simply put, bailing out the US banks was necessary to keep our economy moving. Without it, all economic activity would have ceased. The bail out of Greek banks is not the issue; it's the Greek government that needs the loans to stay afloat.

Most of the TARP money has been returned by the banks to our government. The bail out of Greek government is another issue all together; they don't have the economy or means to pay bank the loans.

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@cicerone imposter,

First it was the Greek banks, now it's the Italians. Look at the DOW Twisted Evil

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Without it, all economic activity would have ceased.

Economic activity never ceases.

1 Reply

@spendius,

You don't understand simple economic principles.

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Screw Greece!

Obama and his regime have no business sense and they have not a
******* clue how to do anything that will actually help the US economy.

1 Reply

@H2O MAN,

Are you sure that you can trust your own judgement? Believe Nothing (but understand as much as you can)!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S8AKHhNehU&feature=channel_video_title

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

Please come up with something logical when you post.

1 Reply

Where is the US economy headed?

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