Where is the US economy headed?

@reasoning logic,

Very informative. I bet Okie and waterman wont watch it and if they do they will missinterpt it.

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@okie,

okie wrote:

How about if I progress to learn from you and the Obama experts on the economy? Apparently according to Obama's experts, spending all of those hundreds of billions saved our economy. It appears we need to keep spending like a drunken sailor in order to have any chance for economic success in the future too.
Hows that? Am I learning?

Sort of. Don't you understand how Stimulative spending works?

As an example: for my college education, I paid my way through with help from student loans. That's pretty much the only way to do it yourself now. During that time I racked up about 20k in debt.

That debt is the equivalent of stimulative spending on my part. It allowed me to further my career and life during a time in which I couldn't make enough money directly to do so. Now that things are better (I'm older, more experienced and hold a degree) I make enough to afford my life AND pay back the stimulative spending.

And that's how spending during a recession works. Our gov't revenue problems stem in large part from two places: 1, taxes are too low in general, but more importantly, 2, unemployment is so high that many people aren't working and aren't paying taxes! Stimulus spending helps our country get by during this time and lets the market recover, without forcing a drastic crash and reorganization of our entire social system.

Now, have you learned something?

Cycloptichorn

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@okie,

okie wrote:

plainoldme wrote:
Our Warmer, Wetter, Wilder World
— By Kevin Drum| Fri Feb. 18, 2011 3:00 AM PST
My friend the geophysicist emailed the other day to tell me his house in Connecticut was still snowed in. "The main hypotheses for why we have so much snow," he explained, "involve heat coming out of the now-open Arctic ocean in early winter. Once the ice cap freezes over temporarily, the wild weather calms down."
What I love about libs is their twisted logic. At least it provides comic relief.

I don't understand what's twisted about this.

The weather follows certain patterns, and when those patterns are disrupted - for whatever reason - the weather that we traditionally experience is going to change. What's hard to understand about that?

Cycloptichorn

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What's really twisted is how conservatives cry about less government intrusion, but the gov of Wisconsin acts as a tyrant and wants to cut off all unions. This picture is a contradiction that conservatives fails to see; he doesn't want to negotiate change, he wants to use government force.

What's wrong with this picture?

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

What's really twisted is how conservatives cry about less government intrusion, but the gov of Wisconsin acts as a tyrant and wants to cut off all unions. This picture is a contradiction that conservatives fails to see; he doesn't want to negotiate change, he wants to use government force.

What's wrong with this picture?

Whats wrong with it is your explanation. The governor is not acting as a tyrant. He is instead trying to carry out his promises for which he was elected. He has a mandate to try to clean up the mess created by irresponsible government before he entered office. It is the Democrats and the unions that are defying the public's desires, as the public has indicated through their duly elected officials.

You loved to talk about the "Party of No." We now see the true "Party of No," and it is the Democrats saying no to the majority of the voters and to responsible representatives that they have elected to try to keep the government solvent. In short, your interpretation is wrong, and you are on the wrong side of the majority of voters. Not only that, you are siding with the wrong political party.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

"Overall, 48% of voters nationwide side with the Governor of Wisconsin in his dispute with labor unions while 38% support the union. Most Republicans and unaffiliated voters support the Governor while most Democrats support the union. "

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

What's really twisted is how conservatives cry about less government intrusion, but the gov of Wisconsin acts as a tyrant and wants to cut off all unions. This picture is a contradiction that conservatives fails to see; he doesn't want to negotiate change, he wants to use government force.

What's wrong with this picture?

Is that really true? The legislation in dispute would only limit public employee unions' ability to address work rules in their negotiations and require the unions to recertify their positions annually by a majority vote of their public employee members. The unions are afraid (scared shitless) that the workers they represent will simply vote them out. They are insisting on a continued right to extort dues from all state employees now and forever.

The public employees of Wisconsin were unionized by administrative action of the state government, without the consent of those state employees. Now anyone employed by the state of Wisconsin must become a member of the union and pay dues to it - as a precondition of employment. Is that fair?

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

The public employees of Wisconsin were unionized by administrative action of the state government, without the consent of those state employees. Now anyone employed by the state of Wisconsin must become a member of the union and pay dues to it - as a precondition of employment. Is that fair?

I have never never understood the logic of such situations, George. I have never understood why every state would not be "Right to Work" states? For example, what in the world is constitutional regarding making somebody belong to a union to work? The right to work without belonging to a union should be as basic as being able to have freedom of speech without belonging to some political group in order to speak out. After all, the Bill of Rights is about having rights as individuals, not having rights because you belong to a group. It frankly makes no sense whatsoever, and I am more than disappointed that the Supreme Court has not declared such stuff unconstitutional from Day 1.

1 Reply

So, okie, where are all those tens of thousands of dissatisfied union members demonstrating in Wisconsin for their right to be decertified? Seen any there yet?

1 Reply

@MontereyJack,

I am sure there are some that do not want to belong to the union.

Are you in favor of tyranny of the majority, MJ? For example, if the majority of all the people driving in your town vote that everyone in your town, including you, must belong to Triple A, are you in favor of that?

1 Reply

@okie,

Triple A analogy in this thread, Geico in another?

You're on an auto kick tonight

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

If you have no answer, are you in humor mode tonight?

2 Replies

@okie,

okie wrote:

If you have no answer, are you in humor mode tonight?

I didn't think it was a serious question.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@okie,

okie, you make everything just a little bit funny.

that's why we keep you around...

1 Reply

@Rockhead,

Maybe it is funny, because you can't grasp the concept? In other words, do individual rights result from belonging to a group in order to obtain them? The answer should be obviously "NO." People as individuals should have a right to work, based upon their agreement with their employer, and it should have nothing to do with what other people might think about it.

1 Reply

@okie,

People have a right to work wherever they like?

Next you'll be calling for equality of outcome and Ican will start yelling at you for a change!

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

People have a right to work wherever they like?

A little parsing of words there, cyclops? They should have a right to work wherever they like, if the employer wants to hire them, which typically indicates the prospective employee meets the standards required by the employer. At least half of the equation is the employer. And if the employer wishes not to hire union members, he should have a right not to. Pretty simple, freedom is, isn't it, cyclops?

3 Replies

@okie,

Once again we see okie making statements that are outright wrong.

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@okie,

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

People have a right to work wherever they like?
A little parsing of words there, cyclops? They should have a right to work wherever they like, if the employer wants to hire them, which typically indicates the prospective employee meets the standards required by the employer. At least half of the equation is the employer. And if the employer wishes not to hire union members, he should have a right not to. Pretty simple, freedom is, isn't it, cyclops?

I'm almost positive that employers typically have legal agreements with the unions they work with not to hire workers not in the union...

And yes, they usually have those agreements because somewhere along the way they were forced to do so by their own workers. I understand how this grates for the type of person who believes that workers should have no power or say in how things are ran in their own workplace. But not everyone agrees that 'shut up or quit' is the best way to run a business.

Yaknow, it's almost as if you aren't really aware of the history of Unionism or why it got started, at all. Let me remind you: it was because the owners and operators of businesses proved time and time again that they were willing to abuse their employees in order to make a profit, and that they could not be trusted.

Cycloptichorn

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@cicerone imposter,

Hear! Hear! To your post on the Governor of Wisconsin acting like a tyrant.

The public workers of that state have already said they will abide by the shift of payment for their retirement funds from the state to them. That is not the issue.

The issue is their right to collective bargaining which is their First Amendment right to Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Assembly which is what the protestors in Egypt and Libya also want.

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@okie,

You need to research right to work laws. They are a difficult body of law and not what you would think from the title.

0 Replies

Where is the US economy headed?

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