114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 11:12 am
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

Your disdain needed to be put into perspective. Is there anyone you like?


I don't think you accomplished that objective.

There are lots of folks out there whom I like and admire: you just don't know any of them.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 07:07 pm
@reasoning logic,
Realjohnboy being that you did not respond, should I take this as if you did not know what you were talking about, as I do at times?
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 07:24 pm
@reasoning logic,
Sorry, I missed a couple of pages. My attention lately has been on Egypt, which hasn't been on A2K. This could be a huge story. Mubarak will, I think, not be able to hang on to power for more than a few more days...or a week.
What was the question re what I did not know what I was talking about? There are so many.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 08:02 pm
@realjohnboy,
If we are going to call it the Oct 6th bridge Do we not need to explain why, "so that other viewers will not misunderstand?

realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 09:19 pm
@reasoning logic,
Oct 6th, 1973, was when Egypt attacked Israel. Yom Kippur, I believe. Oct 6th, 1981, was when Anwar Sadat was assasinated by Muslim extremists.
I got to Cairo later in Oct, 1973, by the way.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 09:21 pm
@realjohnboy,
Been to Cairo in 1998 and 2002; never felt or thought the Egyptians had that kind of resentment against their government. The workers at the hotels were always friendly.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 10:45 am
It was difficult to decide where to post this piece of news about two men that I feel are inherently evil, the koch brothers.

I decided to post it on the economy thread because it illustrates that the real threat to the American economy comes from within: the captains of industry who -- as demonstrated by US Census Bureau Data -- have made certain that their incomes have soared while 80% of the American workforce has seen its wages stagnate.



As Tea Party Koch Brothers Earned An Extra $11 Billion In Recent Years, They Laid Off Thousands

David and Charles Koch, co-owners of Koch Industries and primary financiers of the Tea Party, have amassed one of the world’s largest private fortunes and Koch Industries is the second largest privately held company in America. Koch sycophants in the media have attacked anyone daring to criticize the company because Koch Industries employs nearly 50,000 people, according to a study produced by Koch Industries last week. In the last two years, David and Charles Koch have jumped from each being worth $16 billion to now being worth $21.5 billion. That means together they went from being worth $31 billion dollars to being worth $42 billion today. David is now the richest man in New York City, and the pair are now on the nation’s top ten list for richest Americans.

However, at a time when the Koch brothers were enjoying spectacular financial gains, Koch Industries laid off well over 2,000 people. Using the same approximate “jobs multiplier” Koch Industries used in its study last week, that means Koch Industries extinguished nearly 8,000 jobs in recent years:

– Koch’s John Zink Company subsidiary laid off 63 people in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

– Koch’s Georgia Pacific subsidiary laid off 118 people at its Roxboro, North Carolina plant.

– Koch laid off 50 people at its INVISTA plant in Wilmington, Delaware.

– Koch’s Georgia Pacific subsidiary laid off 158 people at a paper-making plant in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Most of the jobs have been replaced with automated machines.

– Koch’s INVISTA subsidiary laid off 50 people at its plant in Athens, Georgia.

– Koch laid off 150 people at its headquarters in Wichita, Kansas.

– Koch laid off 500 people at its Seaford, Delaware INVISTA plant.

– Koch laid off 400 people in its Waynesboro, Indiana INVISTA plant. As one of the primary employers in the city, the layoffs were expected to have serious ripple effects. City officials said layoffs at Invista will “force cuts across Waynesboro.” “The rest of the community, this will probably instill a bit of a wake-up call and they will cut back also,” predicted Waynesboro Vice Mayor Frank Lucente.

– Koch laid off 320 people at its Georgia Pacific plywood plant in Cleveland, Texas.

– Koch laid off 60 people at its INVISTA plant in Victoria, Texas.

– Koch laid off 169 people from its Flint Hills Resources plant in Odessa, Texas.

– Koch laid off 300 people at its Georgia Pacific plant in Monroeville, Alabama.

– Koch “indefinitely” idled its 60-worker Georgia Pacific mill in Louisville, Mississippi.

The Koch downsizing isn’t limited to the United States. In England, Koch laid off workers at its chemical plant in Wilton, England and closed down its INVISTA plant in Offenbach, Germany.

Koch Industries pretends that it thrives from the “free market,” and that the government only inhibits its growth. But in reality, as Koch slashed jobs, the company exploited government contracts, public forests, public land, narrow corporate loopholes, eminent domain seizures of private land, and has demanded taxpayer bailouts for its refineries.

Moreover, while Koch Industries has interests in a number of different businesses, much of its money is made by simply polluting for free. The core of Koch’s immense profits are based on burning fossil fuels that contribute to climate change, while not paying a dime for these “externalities.” For instance, Koch refines oil, including high carbon Canadian crude, at its Minnesota refinery, Koch owns one of the largest oil pipeline networks in America, Koch manufacturers fertilizer, Koch sells products for mining coal and owns coal-burning power plants, Koch transports coal, oil and natural gas, and finally, Koch sells financial derivative instruments to bet on the price of its own products, like oil or natural gas. Because Koch Industries gets rich burning fossil fuels, the Koch brothers are the largest funders of climate change denying organizations and “libertarian” nonprofits in the world. Koch political donations have helped the company escape serious prosecution for emitting cancer-causing chemicals as well.

By Lee Fang | Sourced from 1304
Posted at February 1, 2011, 1:49 pm
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 02:17 pm
@plainoldme,
What do you expect paper companies to do with their workforce when demand for their products falls?

Do you suppose that the various Koch companies are laying off employees unjustly, or, as are many other employers across the country are doing, because economic activity and demand for their products have declined ? Automating plants is a way of raising productivity through investment and preserving some of the jobs involved. The alternative is to allow the plant to become non-competitive and eventually close entirely costing the employees and the community all of the jobs.

Just a few weeks ago Evergreen Solar, a green power company much touted by Governor Patrick, and the recipient of a $58 million cash grant from the state, announced it was shutting down its Massachusetts plant and the jobs of all 800 employees , and moving operations to China where the government had offered them even larger subsidies and cheaper labor. Evergreen is not returning the $58 million it got from Massachusetts. The Koch brothers didn't do that. It was a modern "Green" , "new technology" , non polluting company thatr did that.
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 03:28 pm
@georgeob1,
I so wish your power of reasoning were more developed.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 04:03 pm
@plainoldme,
Developed down to your level ??? How could you possibly tell.?

You present this pasted screed with an utterly ordinary litany of company employment contractions & layoffs (hardly unusual in these economic times), but without any numerical measures of the relative extent of layoffs or the numbers of new employees added in other areas or comparative data for other companies in the same industries. In short it is an out-of-context list of unverified data that proves or demonstrates nothing - certainly not your claims that they are the essence of evil.

You are merely credulously pasting prefabricated conclusions and propagana from those whom you allow to do your thinking for you.

The truth is that you likely know virtually nothing about these companies or their performance relative to comparable others like them. Very little in the way of reasoning ability is required to detect the mindless quality of the propaganda you paste here, and your own lack of understanding of what is behind it all.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 12:12 pm
Quote:
The Great British austerity experiment
Dean Baker

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/1/25/1295993444833/George-Osborne-007.jpg
UK Chancellor George Osborne will have fewer excuses available to him if growth figures are still bad in April. Photograph: Sipa Press/Rex Features


With deficit hawks poised in the US, we watch with great interest UK economic policy. It's not looking an enviable example so far

Three months ago, I noted that the United States might benefit from the pain being suffered by the citizens of the United Kingdom. The reason was the new coalition government's commitment to prosperity through austerity. As predicted, this looks very much like a path to pain and stagnation, not healthy growth.

That's bad news for the citizens of the United Kingdom. They will be forced to suffer through years of unnecessarily high unemployment. They will also have to endure cutbacks in support for important public services like healthcare and education.

But the pain for the people in England could provide a useful example for the United States. After failing to see the $8tn housing bubble that wrecked the US economy, the austerity crew in the United States has been newly emboldened by the hugely partisan media that desperately want to eviscerate the country's bedrock social programmes: social security and Medicare.

The elite media and the politicians whom they promote would love to see the United States follow the austerity path of the UK's new government. However, if this path takes the UK into dangerous economic waters, it could provide a powerful warning to the public in the United States before we make the same mistake.

The British economy looks like it is doing its part. The fourth-quarter GDP report showing that the economy went into reverse and shrank at a 2.0% annual rate is exactly the sort of warning that many of us here were expecting. Weather-related factors may have slowed growth some, but you would have to do some serious violence to the data to paint a positive picture. Of course, the austerity in the UK is just beginning. There will likely be much worse pain to come, with a real possibility that the country will experience a double-dip recession, or at least a prolonged period of stagnation.

While the UK seems to be doing its part, the key question is whether anyone in the United States is prepared to take the lesson. Prior to this episode, there was already a solid economic case that large public deficits were necessary to support the economy in the period following the collapse of an asset bubble. The point is simply that the private sector is not prepared to make up the demand gap, at least in the short term. Both short-term and long-term interest rates are pretty much as low as they can be.

Furthermore, even if weaker demand did manage to push interest rates down from current levels, it is unlikely that they would have much effect on private spending. Businesses that didn't want to invest when the 10-year treasury bond rate was 3.4% are unlikely to start expanding if the rate fell to 2.4%, especially if the lower rate is coupled with higher unemployment and weaker demand.

The same story applies to consumers. This sort of drop in interest rates is not about to kick off a consumption binge. Consumers remain heavily indebted as a result of the collapse of the housing bubble. Lower interest rates will change this picture little. Furthermore, a consumption splurge is even less likely if government cutbacks mean that more workers are unemployed or worried about losing their jobs.

There might be more hope from an increase in net exports following a turn to austerity, but this would depend on a decline in the value of the dollar and healthy growth in US trading partners. Neither of these seems like good bets at the moment.

This means that the predictable result of austerity is slower growth and higher unemployment. The UK has volunteered to be our guinea pig and test this proposition. For now, it looks like things are going just as standard economic theory predicts: the economy is slowing and unemployment is likely to rise.

Hopefully, citizens of the UK will tire of the rhetoric of austerity as a way to make politicians feel good about tightening other peoples' belts. Maybe the Liberal Democrats will break away from the coalition and force new elections.

From this side of the pond, though, the goal is simply to encourage people to pay attention. The UK might be home to 60 million people, but from the standpoint of US economic policy, it is simply exhibit A: it is the country that did what our deficit hawks want to do in the US.

The takeaway lesson should be "austerity does not work; don't go there." Unfortunately, in the land of faith-based economics, evidence does not count for much. The UK may pursue a disastrous austerity path and those of us in the United States may still have to follow the same road anyhow. But we opponents of that course all appreciate the willingness of the UK to demonstrate the foolishness of this action.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/feb/01/economy-economics

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 12:28 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, It's bad enough that we have over 25 million in our ranks unemployed, and all levels of government cutting jobs based on prolonged deficits. Cutting social security and Medicare will make us into a third world country, and we'll fall behind Greece and Ireland. It'll impoverish most seniors in this country, and that will begin the biggest rank of the homeless of any developed country.

It's a wonder that our citizens aren't protesting how our government continues to battle what's in the best interest of our citizens, and divert them to Egypt and Jordan.

reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 08:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Amen cicerone imposter, even though I am not religious but if you ever decide to start a new religion You might count me in! LOL
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 08:53 pm
rl, I'm not in any position to advise you on financial matters that relates to "unsecured debt." Sorry.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 08:56 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You must have not seen the spam! I was just making a joke about it but it seems that they caught it and deleted it!
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Feb, 2011 02:22 pm
Ugly unemployment report out today.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Feb, 2011 02:27 pm
@realjohnboy,
rjb, Unemployment at current levels will impact our long-term outlook for our economy, because that also impacts what's happening to home-owners who cannot keep up with their mortgage payments. Many are walking away from their over-priced homes, and the banks have yet to recognize these losses on their books. The banks are in big trouble, but the stock market seems to speculate on the reported higher incomes of the big banks; all fraudulent.

I see another bubble brewing.
ican711nm
 
  -4  
Reply Fri 4 Feb, 2011 07:06 pm
Where is the US Economy Headed?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2051527/posts
Maximum income tax rates were decreased from 70% in 1981 to 35% in 2003, and remained at 35% 2003 - 2010.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf
Federal Receipts during the period 1980 - 2007 increased from $0.517 to $2.568 trillion, and during the period 2007 - 2010 decreased from $2.568 trillion to $2,165 trillion.

Federal Outlays during the period 1980 - 2010 increased from $0.591 to $3.721 trillion.

Federal Deficits during the period 1980 - 2000 decreased from -$0.0738 to +$0.236 trillion, and during the period 2000 - 2010 increased from +$0.236 trillion to -$1.556 trillion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_U.S._public_debt
Year………GROSS FEDERAL DEBT
1980.......$0.908 trillion [CARTER]
1988….….$2.602 trillion [REAGAN], average annual increase 1980 - 1988 = $0.2118 trillion
1992........$4.065 trillion [BUSH41], average annual increase 1988 - 1992 = $0.3658 trillion
2000.......$5.674 trillion [CLINTON], average annual increase 1992 - 2000 = $0.2011 trillion
2008.......$10.025 trillion [BUSH43], average annual increase 2000 - 2008 = $0.5439 trillion
2010.......$13.562 trillion [OBAMA], average annual increase 2008 - 2010 = $1.7685 trillion

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.cpseea1.txt
Civilian Non-institutional Population during the period 1980 - 2010 increased from 168 to 238 million.

Total US Civil Employment during the period 1980 - 2007 increased from 99.3 to 146 million, and during the period 2007 - 2010 decreased from 146 to 139 million.

0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 11:39 am
Is it possible that Obama truly feels that the purpose of business
in this country is to provide jobs that pay decent wages ??????????

BUSINESS OBLIGATION

okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 06:46 pm
@H2O MAN,
Thats what our illustrative president said. What do you expect out of guy that knows virtually nothing about running a business?
0 Replies
 
 

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