114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 05:18 am
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

For someone as moronic as okie to harp on common sense is truly disturbing.


Does calling okie a "moron" somehow restore your feelings about yourself?

0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 07:34 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Sounds like another "tax break for the rich."

I don't deduct inconsequential items such as that. It is easier to take the standard deduction most of the time.


Itemizing donations of underwear means you are donating enough that you have to itemize non cash donations in order to meet the tax code. Anyone that donates more than $500 in items to charity has to do it.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 07:36 am
@plainoldme,
POM, knowing how your little brain operates is truly disturbing.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 10:41 am
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:
The consensus of opinion is that the true inflation rate is higher, perhaps significantly so. Poor families, some contend, spend 50% of their income just on food. There is speculation that there could be social unrest.

I find it hard to see why five percent inflation alone, or even ten percent, would cause social unrest in China. After all, to a first approximation, one Chinese worker's spending is another Chinese worker's income. So if the central bank grows China's money supply faster than the Chinese economy grows its GDP, that inflates both wages and prices, which is a wash for Chinese workers and their social problems.

May I ask what evidence your watchdog group has on Chinese wages?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 10:49 am
Yesterday evening, Paul Krugman watched Thunderball, an old James-Bond movie---and found that the villains were amateurs compared to modern bankers....

Krugman wrote:
You see, there’s a scene early in the movie when the minions of SPECTRE, the evil conspiracy, are shown reporting on their profits from dastardly activities. And the numbers are … ludicrously small. I know that’s a running gag in Austin Powers, But it’s true, it’s true!

Even the big one — demanding a ransom for two stolen nuclear warheads — is 100 million pounds, $280 million. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about $2 billion — or one-eighth of the Goldman Sachs bonus pool.

You can read the full post here.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 02:03 pm
Quote:

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=20129&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DPD
Consumerism Is Keynesianism

One of the most pernicious and widespread economic fallacies is the belief that consumption is the key to a healthy economy. This belief is an inheritance of misguided Keynesian thinking. Production, not consumption, is the source of wealth. If we want a healthy economy, we need to create the conditions under which producers can get on with the process of creating wealth for others to consume, and under which households and firms can engage in the saving necessary to finance that production, says Steven Horwitz, the Charles A. Dana Professor of Economics at St. Lawrence University.

Wealth is created through acts of production that rearrange resources in ways people value more than alternative arrangements.

These acts are financed with savings that come from households refraining from consumption.

Putting more resources in the hands of consumers through a government stimulus package fails precisely because the wealth transferred ultimately hasto come from producers.

This is obvious when the spending is financed by taxation, but it's equally true for deficit spending and inflation.

Before the Keynesian revolution the standard belief among economists was that production was the source of demand and that encouraging saving and production was the way to generate economic growth, says Horwitz.

Thanks to Keynesianism, manipulating the elements of total income (consumption, investment and government spending) became the focus of macroeconomic policy and economic development. It was the Keynesians' theoretical framework that led to the development of the relevant national income statistics and that implicitly informs the popular arguments for more consumption.

For over 150 years defenders of free markets saw consumption as destroying wealth, and saving and production as creating it. They never argued that "stimulating consumption" was the path toward prosperity, says Horwitz.

Souce: Steven Horwitz, "Consumerism Is Keynesianism," Freeman Online, December 9, 2010.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 02:57 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

May I ask what evidence your watchdog group has on Chinese wages?

That is certainly a fair question, Thomas, to which I don't have an adequate answer. Much less one I can source. I will work on it.
The inflation rate, according to some anecdotal evidence is higher than 5% and is affecting food more than other consumer goods. That, to me, is cause for concern as wages to the masses are not keeping up.
The "watchdog" group is a computer site populated by people who follow China. It is not on A2K but rather is private. I was allowed to join a month ago due to the efforts of a friend of a friend who is a missionary. The posts are not really archived; or if they are are not retrievable by me. It was suggested by my host that I keep my mouth (or fingers) quiet for awhile.

I will add this to the growing list of things I need to learn more about.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 08:45 am


The US economy is heading in the WRONG direction.

NOW is the perfect time to push for implementation of The Fair Tax Plan.

http://www.fairtax.org/images/homepage/fairtax.jpg

There is no logical reason to delay.

Any politician or political group who claims or implies that the Fair Tax
adds a 23 percent national consumption tax on top of all the other taxes
listed above is either lying to you or is ignorant of the facts.




cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 10:19 am
@realjohnboy,
rjb, I think you're in the money concerning inflation in China. I don't have any source data either, but most of the news I've read makes me conclude that inflation in China really hurts most Chinese. Even read a few days ago that many Chinese college grads are having trouble finding jobs. Inflation certainly hurts them!

Many farmers have been complaining about the taxation in southern China, and I'm sure inflation hurts them too.

0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  3  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 11:12 am
Once again, the biggest problem in the USA is not inflation - in fact, their is a push to get some inflation - deflation is the anticipated problem. If anyone thinks inflation is a problem, wait until deflation hits. Jobs will be gone and 10% jobless will be a goal.

What is the major problem that is putting us on the edge - rich greed - and in deflation, they will be greedier and pidgeon holing even more money. Yeap, the problem is rich greed and getting worse!
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 12:58 pm
Quote:

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_main
What is the FairTax plan?

The FairTax plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including a progressive national retail sales tax, a prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level, dollar-for-dollar federal revenue neutrality, and, through companion legislation, the repeal of the 16th Amendment.

The FairTax Act (HR 25, S 296) is nonpartisan legislation. It abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities.

The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.

The FairTax:
• Enables workers to keep their entire paychecks
• Enables retirees to keep their entire pensions
• Refunds in advance the tax on purchases of basic necessities
• Allows American products to compete fairly
• Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
• Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding
• Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
• Abolishes the IRS

We offer a library of information throughout this Web site about the features and benefits of the FairTax plan. Please explore!


0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  4  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 01:11 pm
* Places more burden on the poor, middle and upper middle class.
* Drastically moves wealthy to the upper wealthy, creating a aristocratic/slave-serf society - again.

Yeap, that be fair Rolling Eyes might as well elect a king for life.
H2O MAN
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 02:15 pm
@BillW,
BullShitBill!

Pure, unadulterated bullshit!

0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 02:38 pm
@BillW,
BillW wrote:

The biggest problem in the USA is not inflation - in fact, there is a push to get some inflation - deflation is the anticipated problem.


Speaking of which, the November CPI is out today. Prices for "all items" rose .1% in November and are up 1.1% over the past 12 months. For "all items excluding food and energy" the increase was also .1% and .8% for the year.
The Fed's target for the CPI is around +2% annually.
I am not hearing very many predictions of deflation from economists, but you are right in saying that that would be terrible for the economy.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  3  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 04:56 pm
If we just be quiet, deny it and put fresh lamb's blood on our door posts it'll miraculously just passover us. Naw, it is being talked about by the Fed, and discussed seriously, the US is following a very seriously close pattern to Japan who has been in a 20 year deflationary/recessionary cycle. But for now I'll just not say anything and it will go away...........
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 05:28 pm
@BillW,
Last time I checked, Bernanke was an Economist and Dec 5, 2010 would be considered the recent past...........

Quote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/12/03/60minutes/main7114229_page2.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Dec. 5, 2010
Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke's Take On The Economy


(CBS) Pelley: What did you see that caused you to pull the trigger on the $600 billion, at this point?

Bernanke: It has to do with two aspects. The first is unemployment. The other concern I should mention is that inflation is very, very low, which you think is a good thing and normally is a good thing. But we're getting awfully close to the range where prices would actually start falling.

Pelley: Falling prices lead to falling wages. It lets the steam out of the economy. And you start spiraling downward.

Bernanke: Exactly. Exactly.

That's deflation and that's what happened in the Great Depression.

Pelley: How great a danger is that now?

Bernanke: I would say, at this point, because the Fed is acting, I would say the risk is pretty low. But if the Fed did not act, then given how much inflation has come down since the beginning of the recession, I think it would be a more serious concern.

Critics of Bernanke's Federal Reserve have the opposite worry: they say the $600 billion and holding down interest rates could overheat the recovering economy, causing prices to rise out of control.

Pelley: Some people think the $600 billion is a terrible idea.

Bernanke: Well, I know some people think that but what they are doing is they're looking at some of the risks and uncertainties with doing this policy action but what I think they're not doing is looking at the risk of not acting.

Pelley: Many people believe that could be highly inflationary. That it's a dangerous thing to try.

Bernanke: Well, this fear of inflation, I think is way overstated. We've looked at it very, very carefully. We've analyzed it every which way. One myth that's out there is that what we're doing is printing money. We're not printing money. The amount of currency in circulation is not changing. The money supply is not changing in any significant way. What we're doing is lowing interest rates by buying Treasury securities. And by lowering interest rates, we hope to stimulate the economy to grow faster. So, the trick is to find the appropriate moment when to begin to unwind this policy. And that's what we're gonna do.

Pelley: Is keeping inflation in check less of a priority for the Federal Reserve now?

Bernanke: No, absolutely not. What we're trying to do is achieve a balance. We've been very, very clear that we will not allow inflation to rise above two percent or less.

Pelley: Can you act quickly enough to prevent inflation from getting out of control?

Bernanke: We could raise interest rates in 15 minutes if we have to. So, there really is no problem with raising rates, tightening monetary policy, slowing the economy, reducing inflation, at the appropriate time. Now, that time is not now.

Pelley: You have what degree of confidence in your ability to control this?

Bernanke: One hundred percent.

Pelley: Do you anticipate a scenario in which you would commit to more than $600 billion?

Bernanke: Oh, it's certainly possible. And again, it depends on the efficacy of the program. It depends on inflation. And finally it depends on how the economy looks.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 05:39 pm
@BillW,
With the Fair Tax, those who spend the most pay the most taxes. The rich spend the most, so the rich will be taxed the most.

What's unfair about that?

Oh! I see! You think the less wealthy will spend a greater percentage of their income than will the more wealthy. If that were actually going to be true with a fair tax, then the more wealthy would invest a greater percentage of their income than would the less wealthy. But hay! That would result in the wealthy creating far more jobs than the less wealthy. So there would be more of the less wealthy becoming more wealthy. That's good for both the less and more wealthy.

That's a "win win situation!"
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 06:26 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:



Oh! I see! You think the less wealthy will spend a greater percentage of their income than will the more wealthy.


I think you are on the right track... Politicians and liberal progressive democrats in particular have convinced themselves
and the dumbmasses that they (big government) do a better job of spending the money the people earn than the people can.
This gives the politician unlimited power over the people.

The Fair Tax Plan removes a great deal of this power from the politicians by allowing the people to keep all of the
money they earn. This loss of power scares the **** out of big government loving liberal progressive democrats.
Power to the people.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 08:00 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Oh! I see! You think the less wealthy will spend a greater percentage of their income than will the more wealthy.
I think you are on the right track... Politicians and liberal progressive democrats in particular have convinced themselves
and the dumbmasses that they (big government) do a better job of spending the money the people earn than the people can.
This gives the politician unlimited power over the people.

The Fair Tax Plan removes a great deal of this power from the politicians by allowing the people to keep all of the
money they earn. This loss of power scares the **** out of big government loving liberal progressive democrats.
Power to the people.
I am glad to see that both you and ican may be on board for seriously considering the Fair Tax, or Retail Sales Tax.

Here are some of the advantages the way I see it, and none of these advantages are small at all.
----A retail sales tax places the burden of taxes on spending or consumption, not production, which I believe is infinitely more healthy for a free market economy.
----A retail sales tax can be progressive, because the bare necessities can be exempt, which would include at least food or groceries (not restaurant food), housing to a threshold but amounts over a certain rent amount or real estate housing sale would be taxable, and second hand clothing would be exempt. Utilities, such as gas and electricity, would also be exempt. Also no more tax on gasoline than we already have. Collecting and exempting would be relatively simple in this world where barcoding is commonplace and standard procedure. The details of what would be taxed or exempt could be worked out. All internet and mailorder sales would be taxed, at least the national sales tax, for all products purchased by American citizens, which would be a huge boost in the potential sales tax collectible. Any offshore entity selling to U.S. citizens could also be required to pay the national sales tax, in order for it to be shipped into the country.
----Enforcement of tax collection would be much easier, because most states already collect state and local sales tax, so the infrastructure is already largely in place. We could save a ton of money by eliminating most of the IRS. Instead of watching hundreds of millions of people to make sure they are paying taxes, the enforcement could concentrate on a very small number of the largest retailers in the country, such as Walmart, Home Depot, Ace Hardwares, Sears, Penneys, and so forth.
----Taxes are collected from everyone, even drug dealers and illegals working for cash, etc. etc. etc. etc.
----All products sold in this country are placed on a level playing field, because the same tax is collected on an item without regard to whether it is manufactured in the United States, China, India, or wherever. Eliminating the income tax on businesses could unleash one of the strongest economic booms in the history of the United States.
----And perhaps one of the most important things would make the tax highly visible to every citizen of the country every time they buy something, which vests them into being interested in how their money is spent by the government.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 08:03 pm
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
Any politician or political group who claims or implies that the Fair Tax
adds a 23 percent national consumption tax on top of all the other taxes
listed above is either lying to you or is ignorant of the facts.


An example of what is wrong with the entire notion of democracy: people like this get to vote.

Ah, just because a loud group who never learned to share in kindergarten want to put the poor on the rack and bend over to the rich, does not mean that such actions are good for anyone.
 

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