114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 03:20 pm
@realjohnboy,
I linked the Bloomberg article to the same report here, rjb.

http://able2know.org/topic/47327-654#post-4409176
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 03:26 pm
@JPB,
Thanks, JPB. I think our posts crossed.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 03:29 pm
California

Perhaps more so than any other state, California's financial troubles can be placed at the doorsteps of California's government employee unions. In California unionized prison guards can earn over $100,000 a years. The unions are clearly bankrupting the state, and they show no sign of slowing down. And just who was it that gave California government employees the right to engage in collective bargaining? Why .. that would be none other than Jerry Brown when he was governor the last time. And who did the dumb mass voters of California just put back into the governor's office? Again ... Jerry Brown. Businesses and high-achieving individuals are bailing out of California right and left. Can't blame them.

It's just this simple ... government employee unions are at war with the taxpayers. The unions realize this ... the taxpayers don't seem to. Helluva way to fight a war.

Oh ... by the way. You do know which side The Community Organizer is on, don't you?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 03:35 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

The co-chairmen of the President's commission to reduce the federal deficit are out today with a draft of a plan. Both Erskine Bowles (D) and former Senator Alan Simpson (R) acknowledge that the plan is unlikely to get the needed 14 votes on the 18 member commission. That is an understatement and Simpson, who is still a witty guy, suggested he and Bowles are likely to enter the Witness Protection Program.
Some of the ideas:
1) Freeze pay for civilian federal employees for 3 years
2) Cut the number of civilian federal employees by 10%
3) Raise the gasoline tax by 15 cents a gallon
4) Eliminate earmarks in legislation
5) Revise the tax code to, amongst other things, eliminate the mortgage interest deduction
6) Also eliminate the deduction businesses get for providing employees with health insurance
In conjunction with 5) and 6)-
7) Reduce income tax rates from 10% to 8% for people in the lowest bracket; from 35% to 23% for those in the highest and from 35% to 26% for corporations.
In addition, Erskine and Bowles address projected shortfalls in the Social Security system's budget (not included in the federal deficit):
1) Change the formula for calculating the COLA on future retirees
2) Reduce SS benefits to all but the lowest earning future retirees
3) Raise the threshold of income subject to SS deductions
4) Raise the retirement age to 68 in 2050 and 69 in 2075.

I found the NY Times article to be the most useful of the ones I looked at. I linked to it from the Real Clear Politics site which I left over from the election. I suspect there are other things included in the draft that I haven't found yet.


I saw this as well. I believe that this is what is usually referred to as a 'non-starter.' Which is to say that this plan, and most of the individual elements of the plan, has a zero percent chance of going into effect.

Krugman saw it too -

Quote:
November 10, 2010, 1:43 pm
Unserious People

OK, let’s say goodbye to the deficit commission. If you’re sincerely worried about the US fiscal future — and there’s good reason to be — you don’t propose a plan that involves large cuts in income taxes. Even if those cuts are offset by supposed elimination of tax breaks elsewhere, balancing the budget is hard enough without giving out a lot of goodies — goodies that fairly obviously, even without having the details, would go largely to the very affluent.

I mean, what’s this about? There is no — zero — evidence that income taxes at current rates are an important drag on growth.

Oh, and they’re talking about raising the retirement age, because people live longer — except that the people who really depend on Social Security, those in the bottom half of the distribution, aren’t living much longer. So you’re going to tell janitors to work until they’re 70 because lawyers are living longer than ever.

Still, I guess this is what it takes to get compromise, if by compromise you mean something the center-right and the hard right can agree on.


It's pure bullshit, from bottom to top. Not a serious plan for addressing the deficit or the debt. It can easily be countered by this: allow the Bush tax cuts to expire, and in ten years, we have zero deficit and are paying down the debt, without cutting ANYTHING else.

God damn, this **** just makes me so angry. People in this country want everything to be free, and I'm not talking about the lower earners.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 03:45 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, Just looking at how the federal budget breaks down tells us everything we need to know. The GOP talks a good game of cutting the deficit, but they never provide the necessary details on any proposal they make.

Many American people are hoodwinked to think the GOP has answers to create jobs; they don't; zilch, nada, zero. Not today, not tomorrow.

Let's see how long the American people give the GOP to a) create jobs, and b) reduce the deficit.

My my own "educated" guess, it'll take another 100 years.

Does this mean the GOP as a party will disappear? Who will the American people blame? Maybe, JF Kennedy - or whatever makes sense to the people.

0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 04:08 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
• A married couple without children and an annual income of $80,000 would have an added $221 taken from their paycheck every two weeks.


That seems way to high...


This looks more like it..

Quote:
For a typical single filer with adjusted gross income of around $40,000, it might be about $400 a year. At $80,000, that rises to about $1,600.

How about married couples filing jointly? They'd get hit with both higher tax rates and a lower standard deduction. (It was raised in 2001.) A couple earning $80,000 a year in adjusted gross income might pay about $2,200 extra. A married couple on $160,000 a year? Maybe $5,500 extra.



http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/CutYourTaxes/what-if-the-bush-tax-cuts-expired.aspx

Those figures are from the AICPA..

I guess we know why you shouldn't let HRBLock do your taxes.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 04:15 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Found it. You'll have to take it up with H&R Block.

Quote:
For a married couple with an income of $80,000, that would drain an extra $221.48 in withholding from a semi-monthly paycheck, according to calculations by the Tax Institute at H&R Block. Married individuals earning $240,000 a year would lose an additional $557.78 to withholding in a single semi-monthly paycheck. The Tax Institute at H&R Block calculated federal tax rates for single-income earners and married taxpayers without children. Source


Also, in my calculations above for the married couple earning $240,000, I failed to double the $558 for semi-monthly paychecks against monthly earnings. If the numbers in the Bloomberg article are correct then both income levels will see an 8% cut in discretionary income.


I don't see how H&R Block got those numbers. The changes in tax rates don't justify the amounts of extra taxes they are claiming would be withheld.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 04:36 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I saw this as well. I believe that this is what is usually referred to as a 'non-starter.' Which is to say that this plan, and most of the individual elements of the plan, has a zero percent chance of going into effect.

It's pure bullshit, from bottom to top. Not a serious plan for addressing the deficit or the debt. It can easily be countered by this: allow the Bush tax cuts to expire, and in ten years, we have zero deficit and are paying down the debt, without cutting ANYTHING else.

God damn, this **** just makes me so angry. People in this country want everything to be free, and I'm not talking about the lower earners.
Cycloptichorn

It is hilarious to read your response, cyclops. First of all, I am surprised that Erskine Bowles of all people would put this out. Secondly, I wonder if this is some kind of trial baloon, to do later what they really want to do?

With that said, I would love freezing the pay for civilian federal employees. I would not only freeze it, but cut it. After all, why are they being paid so much for doing a bad job? Cutting civilian federal employees might be nice, if done in certain bureaucracies that are unneeded. I would rather just eliminate entire bureaucracies, such as the federal Department of Education. I like the eliminating of earmarks. I think more gasoline tax is a bad idea. We first need more accountability with the tax we are currently collecting. Actually, I also think eliminating the mortgage interest deduction is not a bad one, if we keep the standard deduction. For example, why give tax breaks to people paying huge interest on homes they cannot afford? I also favor eliminating the deduction by businesses for health insurance. After all, they can't get credit for providing homeowners insurance or buying peoples groceries. Anything provided by an employer should be considered compensation. McCain had this as one of his reforms that he favored, and I agreed with him at the time. I believe it should be considered income for employees, and each citizen should then deduct it as a medical expense, as a tax credit. I would not lower the marginal tax rates as proposed, I might even raise them, but I would totally eliminate all corporate income tax. The tax could be collected, but at a separate point, from shareholders and employees.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 04:49 pm
@okie,
okie, The trial baloon that the GOP is working on is to make the Bush tax cuts permanent - to create jobs. It hasn't worked since 2001, and it's certainly isn't going to work in the future. The GOP plan to give the wealthiest taxpayers a permanent reduction in taxes means that the federal deficit will grow at a faster rate - which will eventually destroy our country.

Russia or China won't have to use bombs to destroy us; we'll implode like Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland. To give it a good jump start to destroy our own country, the feds are increasing the circulation of the US dollar in the world markets that will create more bubbles to create a bigger burst. From the fat man used in Japan to a thermonuclear explosion in our own country!

Who needs enemies, when we are on self-destruct mode?
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 05:32 pm
Good evening. I agree that the Bowles-Simpson draft is a trial balloon that will go nowhere. There is too much for members of Congress to oppose. The Commission was designed (with bi-partisan support) to punt the deficit issue past the election. Now, the cynic in me says, we will get these proposals to eliminate the IRS etc that will go nowhere until a new Commission gets appointed a year ahead of the 2012 election.
I see that the federal deficit in October, 2010, is listed as $140Bn. Extrapolating that out for 12 months = $1.7 Trillion (if my calculator can handle the zeros).
The trade deficit numbers are out today for October. We exported only $44Bn less then we imported. A 5.3% improvement over last month and the lowest gap since August, 2008. That was spurred by a 7.5% decline in the value of the dollar over the last 4 months.
The Fed is driving down the value of the dollar in order to stimulate exports.
Other countries are crying foul, of course. And the cost of imports for us will rise, resulting in inflation.
New claims for unemployment fell to a 4-month low.
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 06:00 pm
Which will help TOTAL US CIVILIAN EMPLOYMENT and PERCENT OF CIVILIAN POPULATION EMPLOYED improve the most?
(1) Let the rich spend and invest the same or more of the rich's money.
(2) Let the federal government spend and invest the same or more of the rich's money.

Quote:

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.cpseea1.txt
Year……TOTAL US CIVILIAN EMPLOYMENT
1980……………..99 million [CARTER]
1988…………… 115 million [REAGAN]
1992…………….118 million [BUSH41]
2000……………137 million [CLINTON]
2007………..….146 million [BUSH43]
2008………….. 145 million [BUSH43]
2009,……….....140 million [OBAMA]
2010.……………139 million [OBAMA] (as of September 2010 and not final year of term)

Year.…….PERCENT OF CIVILIAN POPULATION EMPLOYED
1980…………………………………….59.2 [CARTER]
1988…………………………………….62.3 [REAGAN]
1992…………………………………….61.5 [BUSH41]
2000…………………………………….64.4 [CLINTON]
2007…………………………………….63.0 [BUSH43]
2008…………………………………….62.2 [BUSH43]
2009…………………………………….59.3 [OBAMA]
2010…………………………………….58.5 [OBAMA] (as of September 2010 and not final year of term)


The correct answer is (1)!
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 06:03 pm
@ican711nm,
Your table and conclusion doesn't compute.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 06:21 pm
Don't you all know that it is Obama's fault for the world's unemployment problem and the world's financial collapse?
I hear that Oboma economics are responsible for the Irish as well. He has been in office for only two years and see what he has done. We need republicans to straighten out this mess," who knows more about capitallism than the republicans?

They know how to put the shaft to poor countries and this will surely help our economy!

This will be world leadership at its finest don't you think?
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 07:08 pm
@okie,
Wait. What?

Proposals that will fix the problem that are unpalatable to both the left and right?

Why does it not surprise me that I'm willing to try all of these things in an effort to fix the problems? Oh, yeah.... I'm a centrist.
okie
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 07:14 pm
@JPB,
JPB, as soon as the specific cuts are laid out there, you won't hear the end of the whinin and complaints out of those that will be cut, and some of the biggest crybabies will probably be the federal employees, that is if any serious cuts are actually proposed. I am going to bet it won't happen, because those are Obama's voters.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 07:19 pm
@okie,
All those "ifs" shows you know nothing! It's all of your own imagination at work - as usual. "Specific cuts?" ROLFMAO
Since when has the GOP ever presented detail on anything?

They're plan to create jobs is to make GW Bush's tax cuts permanent. They still haven't learned that GW Bush's tax cuts since 2001 has created the worst job creation in our history since Hoover.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 07:23 pm
@okie,
okie, it may surprise you to hear this but my response is, let 'em cry and whine. We have an economic problem in this country and it isn't about us or them. It's about each of us and how we're going to solve it. We didn't get here because of one side or the other and we aren't going to get past our problems on the backs or shoulders of any one party.

I'd be willing to vote in each and every one of those "tough love" or "tough sh!t" proposals and see how they roll.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 07:36 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Wait. What?

Proposals that will fix the problem that are unpalatable to both the left and right?

Why does it not surprise me that I'm willing to try all of these things in an effort to fix the problems? Oh, yeah.... I'm a centrist.


I seriously doubt that any of these proposals would 'fix the problem.' Especially the recommended tax cuts, I mean, for Christ' sake. Pull the other one. The idea that lowering the tax brackets on the super-rich by 1/3rd is going to balance the budget is absolute idiocy.

The ridiculous part is that you and others seem to be unwilling to go with the simple solution: return to the tax rates we enjoyed under Clinton, for ALL filers. It requires no legislation. It requires no fights in Congress. No special interest can block it or amend it. And it would represent a recognition of the fact that, no matter who we blame, we ALL have to take responsibility for the fiscal situation we find ourselves in as a country.

If we go with that plan, within a decade we're paying down the debt and the deficit is zero; andwe don't have to make any sort of draconian cuts in social programs. I understand that people like Okie mostly don't give a **** about the social and other ramifications of destroying our various safety nets, but you ought to know better.

Quote:
I'd be willing to vote in each and every one of those "tough love" or "tough sh!t" proposals and see how they roll.


Do you agree that allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire is one of the 'tough love or tough ****' proposals you'd agree to?

Cycloptichorn
JPB
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 07:46 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
nope. I think the tax burden on the lower incomes is too much to tolerate. I'm not sure where the cutoff should be (less than $150,000, $200,000, $250,000), but I tend to think that the lower levels aren't reasonable and the upper levels are simply too high.

I'm not looking for something that's politically palatable, cyclo, I just want it to work.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 07:55 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

nope. I think the tax burden on the lower incomes is too much to tolerate. I'm not sure where the cutoff should be (less than $150,000, $200,000, $250,000), but I tend to think that the lower levels aren't reasonable and the upper levels are simply too high.


Is it even worth pointing out that both are at all-time lows? That the upper-classes have never in history enjoyed tax rates as low as they do now - and that our country experienced levels of growth under much higher rates that make our modern ones look shameful?

How can you possibly think that the taxes on the upper brackets are too high? I just have no clue what data you look at and reach the conclusion that you seem to have reached.

Quote:
I'm not looking for something that's politically palatable, cyclo, I just want it to work.


Uh, if it's not politically palatable, it isn't going to work. It won't ever have a CHANCE to work. One would think that this is a given.

Cycloptichorn
 

Related Topics

The States Need Help - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Fiscal Cliff - Question by JPB
Let GM go Bankrupt - Discussion by Woiyo9
Sovereign debt - Question by JohnJD
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.12 seconds on 07/17/2025 at 07:00:00