114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 07:30 pm
@okie,
Populists come in several varieties. FDR and Ronald reagan were each, in their own way populists; and each altered the prevailing political landscape in their campaigns.

I agree that the usual prototype is the politician who promises to redistribute wealth and property to the groups to which he directs his campaign. However, this doesn't always neatly fit the contemporary liberal/conservative divide in American politics. William Jennings Bryan, a populist of the first rank, would in many areas align himself with conservatives today.

Again the reality of the situation has degrees of freedom (independent variables) that exceed those in the simplistic model you appear to be applying.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 02:32 am
Quote:
Christina Romer, chairman of President Obama's Council of Economic Advisers, was giving what was billed as her "valedictory" before she returns to teach at Berkeley, and she used the swan song to establish four points, each more unnerving than the last.
.
.

And what to do about this? Here, Romer became uncharacteristically hesitant to make predictions. She suggested some "innovative, low-cost policies." But the examples she cited - a "national export initiative," new trade agreements and a "pragmatic approach to regulation" - aren't exactly blockbusters.

"The only sure-fire ways for policymakers to substantially increase aggregate demand in the short run are for the government to spend more and tax less," she said. But asked about the main Republican proposal, extending George W. Bush's tax cuts for those earning more than $250,000, Romer replied that doing so would be "fiscally irresponsible."

The truth is that the Obama administration is pretty much out of options. Any major new effort would be blocked by Republicans, who have few alternatives of their own. "What we would all love to find - the inexpensive magic bullet to our economic troubles - the truth is it almost surely doesn't exist," Romer admitted.

The valedictory was becoming more of an elegy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/01/AR2010090106148.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Is it any wonder that when the top dog admits that they dont have a ******* clue what is going on and has no answers about what to do with the economy that regular Americans have no faith that things will get better? I think not.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 03:51 am
@hawkeye10,
Cut taxes and the Bush tax cuts are fiscally irresponsible? I do sense a certain confusion.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 03:55 am
@hawkeye10,
hawk, History doesn't prove her claim about keeping GW Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy. Not while we "were" engaged in two wars, and our country suffered the Great Recession that started in GW Bush's term as president. Our federal deficit continues to increase, a precursor to what happened in Greece, Spain, and a couple of other countries.

It is necessary for our government to assist those who have lost jobs, and many their homes from this Great Recession by extending their unemployment insurance. We have no business fighting two wars when our own citizens get neglected. As long as our unemployment numbers remain over 9.5%, and we see no improvement in our economy, "somebody" must help pay for the government spending.

You can't tax people who don't have jobs. It's only fair that those who are making the most help subsidize those who have lost jobs through no fault of their own. Our country is supposed to be based on christianity; what ever happened to "help thy neighbor?"
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 04:01 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
what ever happened to "help thy neighbor
too many swindles perpetrated by the corporate class of late have greatly diminished our faith that the money will ever get to the people we want it to...to the people it is claimed to be going to.

Corruption is highly corrosive, surely you are not just now figuring this out!
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 04:04 am
@hawkeye10,
What other method do you think will solve this national problem?
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 04:13 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
What other method do you think will solve this national problem?
I don't think that we solve the economic problems or any other major problems until we fix our broken political system. We are working on it. We are halfway done with replacing the GOP, then we need to replace the Democratic party, and then we can get to work.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 04:22 am
@hawkeye10,
Oh, I see! Our whole political system is broken - even though the citizens control who governs.

I believe you're missing some important issues here.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 04:29 am
@cicerone imposter,
Yes we do control it, which is why when we discovered that it was non responsive to our instructions we decided the make changes. We will get it done.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 06:26 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Populists come in several varieties. FDR and Ronald reagan were each, in their own way populists; and each altered the prevailing political landscape in their campaigns.

I agree that the usual prototype is the politician who promises to redistribute wealth and property to the groups to which he directs his campaign. However, this doesn't always neatly fit the contemporary liberal/conservative divide in American politics. William Jennings Bryan, a populist of the first rank, would in many areas align himself with conservatives today.

Again the reality of the situation has degrees of freedom (independent variables) that exceed those in the simplistic model you appear to be applying.

There you go accusing of me using a simplistic model, George. I would suggest you read the book by Alan Greenspan, wherein he talks in detail about populism and populists, particularly in South America. You might think he was also using a simplistic model, but I think he merely observed a very important political phenomena and discussed it for what it was. In general, the kind of populism he talked about was that of politicians gaining power by addressing so-called greviences and promising social justice rather than sticking to constitutional principles. Reagan's message was constitutional principles, smaller government, and other facets of conservatism, and he did not promise people that government would solve all of their problems and bring social justice.

An important point that I think is crucial here George is the fact that the relative popularity of politicians may be more determined by the culture and the population rather than the politicians themselves. Reagan was popular because the people wanted to return to traditional constitutional values, and that is what appealed to enough people to elect him. And Reagan had a skill of communicating those traditional values, he inspired us to believe in ourselves, America, and our American values. In contrast, Obama was elected because more people wanted change and continued breakaway from traditional values, in hopes of more social justice and all of that liberal associated claptrap that surrounds what is defined as political populism. Populism does not always equate to popularity, thankfully, as that depends upon the mood of the people.

So, the definition of populist does not equate to who is popular, because who becomes popular really depends more upon the condition and mood of society and the power of the media than it does the kind of politician one is. I think populism is a form of politics that is played, not how popular somebody is. Popularity really depends upon other factors, largely determined by what the society wants. I think Greenspan's discussion of this pretty much agrees with what I am trying to explain here. He pointed out that some cultures at various times are more ripe or vulnerable to the appeal of a populist message, which in South America was a leftist message of righting wrongs, income redistribution, social justice, and all of that kind of stuff.

So you can see why I think Obama falls into that category as well. Perhaps FDR would also, but I do not think Ronald Reagan fits. Yes, he was popular by virtue of his communication skills and inspirational qualities, but not for a populist message of income redistribution or social justice, blah blah. I don't know about William Jennings Bryan, but that is far enough back in history that our contemporary understanding of populist politics that it would seem difficult to apply to him, maybe not? Frankly, I don't know what his policies were. One that has not been mentioned, Ross Perot, I think he was a bit of a populist, but I view him as a very confused politician, it was not easy to identify what he was, and I am not sure he knew either.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 07:16 am
@okie,
Okie,

I see you have been unable to rebut any of my statement here..

http://able2know.org/topic/47327-580#post-4336337

So.. let me ask you again about how taxation can be theft if you believe in the US Constitution.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 07:37 am
@parados,
Its a matter of degree and purpose, parados. For example, do you believe the government would have a right under the constitution to tax your wages and income at 100% tax rate, essentially taking every dime that you make, because they decided you already have enough money?
parados
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 07:40 am
@okie,
It's clear that they could legally do that under the Constitution. There is no legal restriction. Read the Federalist papers. Whether it would be prudent for them to do so is a different question okie.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 08:32 am
@cicerone imposter,
In Re: people who don't have jobs.

My first job out of college was as a welfare caseworker. Many of those welfare people that the right loves to complain about are too simple minded to hold a job. Others suffer from diseases (diabetes) or injuries (having one eye) that prevents them from being employed or employed to a sufficient level to allow for financial independence.

So, are we, as a society, to deny a living to someone who has an IQ of 80?

Are we supposed to allow a woman with diabetes to starve?

Do we make certain a man is never allowed to work because he is sighted in one eye only?

Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 08:50 am
@roger,
roger wrote:
Cut taxes and the Bush tax cuts are fiscally irresponsible? I do sense a certain confusion.


May be why she's leaving?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 10:36 am
WHAT'S THE DIFFERNCE?

Leftist Liberals seek more government control over people's lives.
Rightist Conservatives seek more individual control over their own lives.

Leftist Liberals seek more equal distribution of wealth.
Rightist Conservatives seek more merit distribution of wealth.

Leftist Liberals seek more dependence by the needy on government charity.
Rightist Conservatives seek more dependence by the needy on private charity.

Leftist Liberals seek less dependence by the needy on private charity.
Rightist Conservatives seek less dependence by the needy on government charity.

Leftist Liberals rarely specify what Leftist Liberals think.
Rightist Conservatives regularly specify what Rightist Conservatives think.

Leftist Liberals regularly incorrectly claim what Rightist Conservatives think.
Rightist Conservatives regularly correctly claim what Leftist Liberals think.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 11:03 am
Heres an interesting article about the stimulus spending, and govt spending in general.
Its to long to copy, so I will just post the link...

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/01/Why-Government-Spending-Does-Not-Stimulate-Economic-Growth-Answering-the-Critics
Quote:

Indeed, President Obama's stimulus bill failed by its own standards. In a January 2009 report, White House economists predicted that the stimulus bill would create (not merely save) 3.3 million net jobs by 2010. Since then, 3.5 million more net jobs have been lost, pushing the unemployment rate above 10 percent.[1] The fact that government failed to spend its way to prosperity is not an isolated incident:

During the 1930s, New Deal lawmakers doubled federal spending--yet unemployment remained above 20 percent until World War II.
Japan responded to a 1990 recession by passing 10 stimulus spending bills over 8 years (building the largest national debt in the industrialized world)--yet its economy remained stagnant.
In 2001, President Bush responded to a recession by "injecting" tax rebates into the economy. The economy did not respond until two years later, when tax rate reductions were implemented.
In 2008, President Bush tried to head off the current recession with another round of tax rebates. The recession continued to worsen.
Now, the most recent $787 billion stimulus bill was intended to keep the unemployment rate from exceeding 8 percent. In November, it topped 10 percent.[2]
Undeterred by these repeated stimulus failures, President Obama is calling for yet another stimulus bill.[3] There is every reason to expect another round to fail as miserably as the past ones, and it would bury the nation deeper in debt.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 11:10 am
@okie,
Alan Greenspan was one of the culprits that failed to do his job well; it was during his watch that the Great Recession started.

I also believe Bernanke is not doing a good job either; he's allowing our government to borrow money on the cheap, so they can continue spending money we don't have.

Both are fiscally ignorant at managing our money policy.
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 11:12 am
@plainoldme,
You dont understand the conserative mantra which is screw everyone but me.
talk72000
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 12:21 pm
@mysteryman,
The US economy of the 30s and the US economy are very different in that in the 30s it was self sufficient. International trade only accounted for less than 4%. Now it is higher thanks to the Bush free trade. Muslims and Europeans are not buying American cars.
0 Replies
 
 

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