114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:20 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

I don't have any problem with belt tightening on the home front to reduce the deficit so long as we tighten the belt even tighter on the federal spending side.


I'll ask you the same question that I ask others: what would you cut, on the spending side? And how would you address the issues that the spending is currently addressing? We cannot magically assume that the problems involved will just go away....

Cycloptichorn
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:21 pm
@JPB,
Actually, you only pay taxes on the taxable income.

If you can reduce your gross income by deductions, which is what happened in the 1970s, the top earners could make their taxable income zero.
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:25 pm
Paul Krugman, writing in August of 2002:

"To fight this recession the Fed needs more than a snapback; it needs soaring household spending to offset moribund business investment. And to do that, as Paul McCulley of Pimco put it, Alan Greenspan needs to create a housing bubble to replace the Nasdaq bubble."

JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:26 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
First, I would reduce the size of government by 1/4 across the board. That includes staffing for all levels of government (yes, even air traffic controllers and regulatory agencies) in all three branches. I would very much like Congress to not deal with much of what they find the time to deal with. I'd much rather they were simply too busy dealing with the Critical Affairs of the Nation and had no time whatsoever to deal with social issues.

Second, I would get the hell out of Iraq!!

Third, hmmm... let me think about it for more than 30 seconds and I'll come up with a third one.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:31 pm
@parados,
I'm guessing my mythical family making $75,000/yr doesn't have a whole lot of deductions. Even with those numbers being taxable income against an AGI of say.... $80000, $3000 is a pretty big tax bite.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:37 pm
@JPB,
Of course not. If they could drum up as many deductions as Parados seems to think, nobody would be paying any taxes.

parados wrote:

Actually, you only pay taxes on the taxable income.

If you can reduce your gross income by deductions, which is what happened in the 1970s, the top earners could make their taxable income zero.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:38 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

First, I would reduce the size of government by 1/4 across the board. That includes staffing for all levels of government (yes, even air traffic controllers and regulatory agencies) in all three branches.


Is there no concern that these agencies won't be able to do their job with 1/4 less people?

Quote:
I would very much like Congress to not deal with much of what they find the time to deal with. I'd much rather they were simply too busy dealing with the Critical Affairs of the Nation and had no time whatsoever to deal with social issues.


Hmm. Well, some of us think that there are social issues which are sort of critical to the nation, so you can see that there is disagreement on this issue. Though I do agree for the most part.

However, the only way to effectively control Congress is by voting them out...

Quote:
Second, I would get the hell out of Iraq!!

Third, hmmm... let me think about it for more than 30 seconds and I'll come up with a third one.


We seem to be doing the second one... slowly

Cycloptichorn
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:42 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

JPB wrote:

First, I would reduce the size of government by 1/4 across the board. That includes staffing for all levels of government (yes, even air traffic controllers and regulatory agencies) in all three branches.


Is there no concern that these agencies won't be able to do their job with 1/4 less people?



I believe that the job should be defined by the limited amount of manpower available to do it, not by making government larger in order to accommodate an ever increasing (non-critical) scope.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:43 pm
@JPB,
Quote:

I believe that the job should be defined by the limited amount of manpower available to do it, not by making government larger in order to accommodate an ever increasing (non-critical) scope.


Define non-critical.

And I believe in doing so, you will begin to see the magnitude of the problem.

I also disagree that the job should be defined by the available manpower. When need exists, the need isn't defined by how many people are in the office, but instead by the actual situation. 'Need' should determine staffing levels; staffing levels don't determine need.

Cycloptichorn
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:51 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
At a federal level? I don't think it's that hard at all. Run the treasury, regulate commerce, maintain the military, help with the interstate infrastructure, ensure a viable postal service, and let the states and local communities deal with just about everything else.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:53 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
We give (and now expect) much too much from our federal government, cyclo. We're spoiled. We whine about paying taxes (unless it's someone else who is going to be paying them) and then whine even louder when someone asks how we're going to pay for whatever it is we want.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:55 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

At a federal level? I don't think it's that hard at all. Run the treasury, regulate commerce, maintain the military, help with the interstate infrastructure, ensure a viable postal service, and let the states and local communities deal with just about everything else.


Why do you pretend that State and Local communities will deal with the issues we face any cheaper than the Feds do? It looks like your plan is mostly to transfer your tax dollars away from a central entity to a local one - but not to lower the actual amount of money it takes to deal with issues.

I also have to say that I am not particularly confident that individual states and cities can effectively administer many of these programs, without also ballooning up to gigantic levels.

Does 'regulate commerce' include things like the FDA? OSHA? The SEC? The NHS? What about FEMA?

I guess a better exercise would be to ask you which programs you would specifically cut, and how you would replace the functioning of those programs (or if you even would, I guess).

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 02:56 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

We give (and now expect) much too much from our federal government, cyclo. We're spoiled. We whine about paying taxes (unless it's someone else who is going to be paying them) and then whine even louder when someone asks how we're going to pay for whatever it is we want.


Speak for yourself; I don't whine about paying taxes. I advocating increasing my own taxes along with everyone else's. It is a necessary part of living in a country where we enjoy the luxuries we do.

I think that a large part of this debate boils down to whether one thinks that those who run into problems or difficulties in life should have any safety net at all, or any assistance at all - or that it should be survival of the fittest, and **** the next guy if he can't keep up. We have made a determination at the national level that we don't want to live in a society in which people are just trampled and left behind.... and that costs money.

Cycloptichorn
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 03:05 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Why do you pretend that State and Local communities will deal with the issues we face any cheaper than the Feds do? It looks like your plan is mostly to transfer your tax dollars away from a central entity to a local one - but not to lower the actual amount of money it takes to deal with issues.


I think transferring them to the local entities will reduce the actual amount of it takes to deal with the issues. One financial advantage of centralizing a process is ostensibly to reduce overhead. I don't buy it in the case of our government. I think if people get to see and feel how their tax dollars are being spent then they'll make smarter choices on what they want to raise taxes for. Ok... maybe not California, but I believe in balanced budgets too. No unfunded programs allowed!
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 03:07 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I think that a large part of this debate boils down to whether one thinks that those who run into problems or difficulties in life should have any safety net at all, or any assistance at all - or that it should be survival of the fittest, and **** the next guy if he can't keep up. We have made a determination at the national level that we don't want to live in a society in which people are just trampled and left behind.... and that costs money.

Cycloptichorn


And who better to take care of those with problems and difficulties than his neighbors and others in his community/state? Federal programs make those folks invisible as people. Maybe some prefer it that way, but I still think we can take care of each other much better on a local/state level than a federal one.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 03:10 pm
@Irishk,
You may want to read the rest of Krugman's 2002 article for the context to that quote. Krugman wasn't calling for a housing bubble to replace the Nasdaq bubble. He was summarizing what other people (i.e., the Fed) were trying to do---and spent the rest of the article doubting that it would work. As it happens, Krugman was wrong, and it did work for a couple of years. But still, the quote sounds different out of context than in context.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 03:11 pm
Quote:
Latinos for SB 1070Posted by Darla, ADMIN / National Director on July 22, 2010 at 5:13pm in We Stand with Arizona SB1070
Back to We Stand with Arizona SB1070 Discussions
Great News! DD

Latinos for SB 1070


From Fox News: “The Arizona Latino Republican Association will become the first Hispanic organization in the country to actively oppose the Department of Justice’s lawsuit against the state of Arizona’s new
immigration law. Larry Klayman, founder of Freedom Watch, Inc., said he
will be joined by ALRA Chairman Jesse Hernandez and members of the
Phoenix Law Enforcement Association at an announcement Thursday morning
in Phoenix.”

Speaking of racial profiling. The media has by and large profiled all Latinos — Hispanics — as poor people who support the liberal policies of the Democratic Party.

Not everyone is going along with the welfare state that Democrats offer. Legal refuges from Cuba are ardently independent and fiercely capitalistic. They have seen the fulfillment
of the Democratic Party wet dream in action.

No thanks, comrade.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 03:19 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Why do you pretend that State and Local communities will deal with the issues we face any cheaper than the Feds do? It looks like your plan is mostly to transfer your tax dollars away from a central entity to a local one - but not to lower the actual amount of money it takes to deal with issues.


I think transferring them to the local entities will reduce the actual amount of it takes to deal with the issues. One financial advantage of centralizing a process is ostensibly to reduce overhead. I don't buy it in the case of our government. I think if people get to see and feel how their tax dollars are being spent then they'll make smarter choices on what they want to raise taxes for. Ok... maybe not California, but I believe in balanced budgets too. No unfunded programs allowed!


What ends up happening is emergencies. Natural disasters, epidemics, and other unforeseen costs blow budgets up, and then States have to scramble to find a way to pay for these things. This is basically what happened in CA - they got fucked hard by the Enron thing and then never could recover.

Cycloptichorn
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 03:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I guess I can best explain my position like this... Say I have a $10,000 federal tax bill and I want to know how my money is being spent. I can't do it. It's too big and too complicated for me, (or anyone else) to have any idea on how our tax dollars are being used. If someone want to raise my tax bill to $11,000 because they spent too much money beforehand, there's no way that we can see any possible alternatives because we can't get our heads around the outflows - there are too many of them.

I don't object to paying taxes. I don't even object to paying a lot of taxes, or having my taxes raised. What I object to is waste. I'm frugal in my own life. I want my government to be frugal too.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 03:23 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
And who better to take care of those with problems and difficulties than his neighbors and others in his community/state?


Well, their neighbors and community members often don't wish to help them, or disdain them for some reason. Does this mean that they don't deserve help?

Especially when it comes to social issues, many of the changes of the last century were forced upon a populace who didn't give a **** about equality and actively didn't want to help certain groups. You think this is an appropriate way to go about our national business?

Quote:
Federal programs make those folks invisible as people. Maybe some prefer it that way, but I still think we can take care of each other much better on a local/state level than a federal one.


I don't know how federal programs make people invisible, any more than state or local programs do.

By taking every individual who needs help or has an issue, and dealing with them on an ad-hoc basis, we guarantee that that help will be uneven and expensive. It is rarely if ever cheaper to do things on any sort of large scale without an underlying framework.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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