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Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 11:54 am
McGentrix wrote:
Everyone knows liberals like to spend, so obviously the real responsible solution of cutting spending couldn't possibly be considered.


This would be more valid if the Conservatives hadn't gone on a wild spending spree for the last 6 years. As it is, there's not much room for criticism.

You will note that I said:

Quote:
We all know that the political reality is that programs won't be cut any time soon, not to the degree which would fix our budget problems


You should face reality and see that neither party is interested in doing what you call the 'responsible solution.' This leaves us with exactly one choice, raising taxes.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 11:56 am
McGentrix wrote:
Everyone knows liberals like to spend, so obviously the real responsible solution of cutting spending couldn't possibly be considered.


If Democrats were honest and Republicans were honest, the first "cut" would come from Corporate "welfare".

The second "cut" would be a re-instatement of the Estate Tax back to Pre_Bush days.

The 3rd cut would be and increase in Capital Gains Rates back to ordinary income levels (why is income taxed differently anyway? the :code says income from all sources?)

The 4th Cut would be in Social Welfare programs that show no meaningful use such as entitlements to the Arts.

But why waste my "fingers" here when the basis is honesty from our elected politicians. There is none on either side of the aisle.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 11:57 am
"You should face reality and see that neither party is interested in doing what you call the 'responsible solution.' This leaves us with exactly one choice, raising taxes."

That is the statement of a quitter and a loser.

How about vote out every incumbant next November and replace them with the indeppendant candidate?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 12:00 pm
woiyo wrote:
"You should face reality and see that neither party is interested in doing what you call the 'responsible solution.' This leaves us with exactly one choice, raising taxes."

That is the statement of a quitter and a loser.

How about vote out every incumbant next November and replace them with the indeppendant candidate?


Yeah, you get right to work on that one.

I've seen a lot of the 'throw 'em all out!' sentiment from you lately. And it isn't as if you don't have some small point. But, be honest - it isn't going to happen. And a complete replacement of all of our government officials would be disastrous to our current system. So, what's the point, other than to voice your frustration, of saying stuff like this?

I have no intention whatsoever of voting any Democrat out of office, with the exception of the guy with the money in his freezer in LA.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 12:16 pm
"I've seen a lot of the 'throw 'em all out!' sentiment from you lately. And it isn't as if you don't have some small point. But, be honest - it isn't going to happen. And a complete replacement of all of our government officials would be disastrous to our current system. So, what's the point, other than to voice your frustration, of saying stuff like this? "

So long as the majority of voters think like you and are sheep who follow their little selfish interests, there can be no real change in our government.

I point this out as my way of showing to real objective thinkers that there is a real choice, if you have the guts to be a leader and not a follower, like you.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 12:18 pm
woiyo wrote:
"I've seen a lot of the 'throw 'em all out!' sentiment from you lately. And it isn't as if you don't have some small point. But, be honest - it isn't going to happen. And a complete replacement of all of our government officials would be disastrous to our current system. So, what's the point, other than to voice your frustration, of saying stuff like this? "

So long as the majority of voters think like you and are sheep who follow their little selfish interests, there can be no real change in our government.

I point this out as my way of showing to real objective thinkers that there is a real choice, if you have the guts to be a leader and not a follower, like you.


I fully and completely support you saying whatever it is you wish to say on this or any other issue, provided that it makes you feel better in some way.

I'm going to stay grounded in reality, however, thanks. You don't seem to have thought about the consequences of reorganizing our gov't all at once.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 12:30 pm
Stock market under Clinton and bush
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/imposter222/djiagraph.jpg

Budget deficits under Clinton and Bush
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/imposter222/deficitgraph.jpg

Unemployment under Clinton and Bush
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/imposter222/unemploygraph.jpg
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 12:45 pm
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 12:49 pm
"Can do" is a worthless couple of words without the performance.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 12:51 pm
woiyo wrote:


It's interesting - the people who have the 'can do' attitude are the special interests. It is they who have been doing the work and spending the money for all these years. Yet, they are excoriated for doing exactly what you want others to do - take an active hand in our governance.

Funny

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 01:15 pm
So cyclops, I still have gotten nothing more from you in the way of evidence in regard to your graph, poverty line standards during your graph, and evidence that Bush's tax refunds to the working poor is included into the graph. Also, nothing for the last 2 years.

And even by your own graph, the average of the percent people in poverty was higher during Clinton than Bush through 2004. You say trends mean something to suit what you want, but averages also mean something as well. Besides, such a graph means nothing without providing what the numbers are based on.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 01:26 pm
Well, I am busy contributing to our economy at the moment and haven't had time to respond.

But I take contention with your claim that the averages matter more than the trends/at all. That's bullsh*t. If Bush hadn't inherited a lowered poverty rate from Clinton, his averages would suck... the fact is that the amount of people lowered during Clinton's term, significantly, whereas it has risen under Bush's. The poverty level has risen at the same time as the amount of rich have risen under Bush, an undeniable fact.

There is no reason to believe that tax cuts weren't taken into account, so why would I? The census bureau is based upon self-reporting data, so why wouldn't those people who reported themselves take this into account themselves? Makes no sense.

The numbers are based upon census bureau data, as you would see if you looked at the graph itself.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 01:40 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Well, I am busy contributing to our economy at the moment and haven't had time to respond.

Fine, I will wait for a full accounting.
Quote:
But I take contention with your claim that the averages matter more than the trends/at all. That's bullsh*t. If Bush hadn't inherited a lowered poverty rate from Clinton, his averages would suck... the fact is that the amount of people lowered during Clinton's term, significantly, whereas it has risen under Bush's. The poverty level has risen at the same time as the amount of rich have risen under Bush, an undeniable fact.
According to your graph, I will agree with your point about the trend. You have a valid argument, but I simply pointed out there are other things besides trends, such as overall average. Maybe you need to consider that as well? But bottom line, I am skeptical of the graph until I see the data that it came from.
Quote:
There is no reason to believe that tax cuts weren't taken into account, so why would I? The census bureau is based upon self-reporting data, so why wouldn't those people who reported themselves take this into account themselves? Makes no sense.

The numbers are based upon census bureau data, as you would see if you looked at the graph itself.

Cycloptichorn

There are lots of reasons to doubt the tax cuts were not considered. I know someone that made 22,000, so according to income statistics, the Census Bureau would have that figure, but unless you can prove it, I doubt seriously the Census Bureau includes the thousands of dollars they received as a refund over and above what they even paid in, which would push their income to 24 or 25,000. If they did, great, but why would you automatically assume they would? The people are likely not going to report that. They are going to be asked, how much do you make per month or whatever, and they will get that information. Which brings up another thing, how reliable are self-reported incomes to the Census Bureau? Not very, in my opinion. You have alot more confidence in the graph than I do.
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Avatar ADV
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 01:40 pm
Cyc, even you must know you're being unfair here. Bush hardly -caused- the tech crash and recession at the start of his term, after all. You're taking Clinton's end numbers, which happen to coincide more or less with the very peak of an unprecedented boom, and drawing from them the conclusion that Clinton's economic policies were an unparalleled success, when pretty much everyone reading (and you) know that it was hardly a government-policy-fueled boom.

I'll give Clinton this much credit - he didn't screw it up, which he could have. But giving Clinton all the credit for the economic boom on his watch, and blaming Bush for the following bust... it's not merely wrong, but dishonest.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 01:43 pm
Plus the fact the Gingrich led Congress deserves alot of credit, if not most of the credit for budget surpluses and the economy. If Clinton deserves any credit at all, the Congress deserves its fair share as well.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 01:45 pm
Avatar ADV wrote:
Cyc, even you must know you're being unfair here. Bush hardly -caused- the tech crash and recession at the start of his term, after all. You're taking Clinton's end numbers, which happen to coincide more or less with the very peak of an unprecedented boom, and drawing from them the conclusion that Clinton's economic policies were an unparalleled success, when pretty much everyone reading (and you) know that it was hardly a government-policy-fueled boom.

I'll give Clinton this much credit - he didn't screw it up, which he could have. But giving Clinton all the credit for the economic boom on his watch, and blaming Bush for the following bust... it's not merely wrong, but dishonest.


I give Bush and Clinton equal credit - not much.

But the numbers don't lie... I don't blame Bush for Clinton's bust(ie, the natural business cycle), but he has done nothing to fix it at all.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 03:03 pm
okie wrote:
Darn stock market is almost half way to 14,000 after just going over 13. What is the matter with those guys, don't they know the economy is in shambles, there is a housing bubble, everybody is out of work, and has even given up on even looking for work, etc. etc. etc.? They need to call imposter.

By the way, imposter, if you know anyone that needs work, tell them to become a nurse or trained in the medical field in some way, and they can find work almost anywhere. Unless of course they don't show up for work, have a serious drug problem, or whatever.

The DOW closed today at 13384, By Okie's reasoning the economy crashed today because it went up (by Okie's reasoning, the economy boomed) then he went down (oy Okie's resoning, the economy crashed)
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 03:06 pm
okie wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
okie wrote:
Come on dys, your side thought so in the 90's. It is one indicator, not the only indicator. But I would rather the market be going good than bad, as long as it is not a false bubble. The bubble of the 90's had to be corrected, and it took time, I do agree with that.

Quote:
Come on dys, your side thought so in the 90's
My side? do you actually ever read anyone's posts without extreme prejudice? I never ever voted for Clinton and I am no democrat so don't give me any more of the "your side crap"

I don't hear you defending conservatives, dys. What side are you on. You are a Kucinich backer and he is not any conservative by any stretch. Much closer to Clinton than Bush. Be honest, dys.
Far more honest than you Okie, Kucinich is a liberal, Bill Clinton is a moderate/conservative (a republican) But you are correct I don't support conservatives (can your READ my signature line or are you just toally clueless about who Simpson is?)
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 03:39 pm
The Conservative mentality is predicated upon an Us vs. Them viewpoint. Without it, they are literally lost for ideas.

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 04:36 pm
And the ideas they have and used have backfired on most Americans and Iraqis - now paying dearly in lives and treasure.
0 Replies
 
 

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