Where is the US economy headed?

There's no cure for stupid.

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okie wrote:

Cyclops, I hate to even disagree with you after you went to bat for me.

I will have to look up some statistics, but have you ever been to the U.K.? Yes, they have UHC, but a relative was very worried about obtaining necessary treatment in time after being diagnosed with a heart attack. That person did okay, but treatment would have been faster here.

This site gives a few things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living_in_the_United_States

Here again, anecdotal evidence is worth alot if you see it for yourself. You could not pay me enough money to live in a flat in a British city.

It isn't that people's anecdotal accounts are useless - it's just this whole internet thing. We can't verify any sort of anecdotal evidence at all; we never will be. There are far too many instances in which productive conversations are derailed by anecdotal evidence, and arguments which purport it to be persuasive...

It's better to stick just to the facts, assertions, and suppositions that we can discuss and provide evidence and logic for. The internet being the internet and all.

Cycloptichorn

ps - there are very few subjects in which you can't dig up some sort of evidence or proof. Usually, it's laziness. Another good reason not to use anecdotal evidence.

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okie wrote :

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Careful, hamburger, or you will incur the wrath of cicerone imposter for suggesting that the high costs of doctors salaries and hospitals just might have some influence on people seeking medical care overseas. I was called a virtual idiot by imposter for suggesting that unions negotiating high wages and benefits for employees in this country would have anything at all to do with our trouble in competing in the world market.

imo as long as many company presidents , "filmstars" , "sportstars" ,
money lenders ... are able to draw million dollar salaries , own several houses and cars ... i don't think i would want to deny the workers a decent wage and "social" benefits including health care .

i am reminded of something that john k galbraith said some years ago .
he gave an address to the students at queen's university here - and of course , spoke about some of his economic ideas .
at the question and answer session following his address , one student asked : " under your socialist ideas , should a company owner or president only earn as much money as the worker on the assembly line ? " .
he answered : "no , i believe that the president or owner should make many times what the worker is making . if the worker is making $ 10,000 (that was a fair salary in those days) a year should the owner or president be making 10 times as much , that is $ 100,000 a year ?
no , i don't think that's enough .
should he be making 100 times as much , that is $ 1,000,000 a year ?
well , i think that might be somewhat excessive ; would he not be able to live quite well on $ 200,000 to 300,000 ? ".

(keep in mind , that in those days - i think it was during the 70's a million dollars was still REAL MONEY ).

imo it's the EXCESSES of all kinds that are harmful to a nation - particularly when there are plenty of people living under difficult conditions .

perhaps i'm a simpleton , but i cannot understand why people need several millions of dollars every year , why they need three or four mansions (i'm not talking of having a cottage or cabin) . why do they need several cars , servants ... and so on .

looking at medical professionals , i doubt that many are earning outlandish salaries (i'm sure there might be some exceptions ) .
so is there a reason to deny basic healthcare to ANY citizen ?

as the CNN article pointed out , the outsourcing of medical services will eventually hurt the nation as a whole since more and more money will be flowing out of the country - and i'm sure no nation can afford to have money flowing out continuously .

getting back to your argument " that unions negotiating high wages and benefits for employees in this country would have anything at all to do with our trouble in competing in the world market " .
surely , you are not suggesting that american (and canadian) workers be paid at the level of mexican or indian workers ?
as a matter of fact , i would suggest that differences between workers and "bosses" are even more pronounced in those countries - surely we don't want to follow that route ?

i'm all for a "capitalistic" society , after all that's where i worked quite happily and earned my money for many years . i do think , however , there need to be some limits - call them barriers , i you will - to prevent excesses from damaging or destroying the system in the end .

moderation in everyhing , that is my motto (perhaps i'm getting too old to burn the candle at both ends :wink: ).
hbg

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I think boards of directors are not doing their jobs properly, by allowing exorbitant salaries to corporate executives. This subject has come up before. We can change tax laws to limit business deductions for salaries paid above certain limits, as a business expense. Or we could go back to very high marginal tax rates for salaries over a certain level, and I think that should be only at a very high level.

However, I do not think punishing the rich is going to solve the problems we are talking about here.

Unions have negotiated for higher wages and more benefits. Yes, we all like that, but fact is, consumers will opt for goods with near same quality at a lower price, even if it was slave labor that manufactured it.

Another idea I have had for a long time, and one you do not hear anywhere, is to give cost of living raises to social security beneficiaries, not entirely on a percentage basis, but in part on a dollar basis.

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okie wrote :

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However, I do not think punishing the rich is going to solve the problems we are talking about here.

i sure hope you don't think that i'm advocating "punishing the rich" -
certainly in the united states and canada the "rich" are not being punished imo .
i do think , to some extent there is the question of self-restraint - which does not always work , but could be encouraged .
as we discussed on another thread ( ...SWEDEN : P C OUT OF CONTROL... ) , the swedes seem to have managed to have a large well to do middle-class while still allowing entrepreneurs to prosper . their advantage is , of course , is a much smaller and fairly unified population ; so consensus can probably be reached much easier .

i am somewhat concerned that the number of "disadvanteged" citizens
(and people can be disadvanteged in many ways - not just economically) will continue to grow and shake the very foundation our society is built upon .

to give an example from our own small city : we have managed to spend about $ 50 million on a new entertainment center , an old theater is being rebuilt at a cost of over $10 million , a new mega-sports complex is being planned , the university is building a $100 million sports-complex .

and yes , our mayor announced the formation of a "task force" to "study" the problems of the underpriveleged , poor and "challenged" (mentally sick) people .
this is - unfortunately - what seems to happen at all levels of government .

i'm reminded of one of the first things i learned when we came to canada 50 years ago : "it's the squeaking wheel that gets the grease" :wink: .

so : let's NOT punish the rich , but let's make sure everyone has bread before we start handing out the cake and champagne .
hbg

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Yes, we all like that, but fact is, consumers will opt for goods with near same quality at a lower price, even if it was slave labor that manufactured it.

Sorry, I don't support greed as the basis for our society.

And I don't agree with you that people will buy slave-made items, not consciously.

Cycloptichorn

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cyclo wrote :

Quote:

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Yes, we all like that, but fact is, consumers will opt for goods with near same quality at a lower price, even if it was slave labor that manufactured it.

Sorry, I don't support greed as the basis for our society.

And I don't agree with you that people will buy slave-made items, not consciously.

Cycloptichorn

sorry , cyclo !
unfortunately i do not have quite as much faith in all of mankind as you -
i wish i could agree with you wholeheartedly , but ...

that's why i think "government" ( THE PEOPLE ! ) has to exercise some control over the population as a whole . i don't want to live in a "nanny state" , but a country without adequate controls is like a rudderless ship in a storm imo .
hbg

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

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Yes, we all like that, but fact is, consumers will opt for goods with near same quality at a lower price, even if it was slave labor that manufactured it.

Sorry, I don't support greed as the basis for our society.

And I don't agree with you that people will buy slave-made items, not consciously.

Cycloptichorn

I used the term, "slave labor," not in the strictest terms, that slaves made the goods, but merely to point out that items are manufactured with very substandard wages as compared to this country. I would be very surprised if you have never consciously purchased goods that you know are made in countries where such employment standards are far below ours.

By the way, I have never owned a car not manufactured by the big 3 domestic car companies. Can you say the same?

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okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Yes, we all like that, but fact is, consumers will opt for goods with near same quality at a lower price, even if it was slave labor that manufactured it.

Sorry, I don't support greed as the basis for our society.

And I don't agree with you that people will buy slave-made items, not consciously.

Cycloptichorn

I used the term, "slave labor," not in the strictest terms, that slaves made the goods, but merely to point out that items are manufactured with very substandard wages as compared to this country. I would be very surprised if you have never consciously purchased goods that you know are made in countries where such employment standards are far below ours.

We've heard arguments for years that the employment in other countries is 'fair' and 'lifts people out of poverty.' One of the main arguments in favor of Globalization is exactly this - that you are helping people increase the productivity of their country.

Which, I don't buy. So I try to buy everything I can from the USA or Europe. There are some electronic items which you can't avoid this on, but I have a feeling that their factories pay more than most sweatshops.

I don't buy food, clothing, tools, or artwork from anywhere but America and Europe, not with my conscious knowledge. I'm sure some of it sneaks in around the edges, but that's okay; you don't have to be perfect, just try to do good.

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By the way, I have never owned a car not manufactured by the big 3 domestic car companies. Can you say the same?

Absolutely. Both cars I have owned in my life were Ford Mustangs.

Cycloptichorn

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Oh, thats right. You are the one that does not currently own a car, right?

I am the same with buying products. I look at where things are made, and if you can trust the labels, I try to buy U.S., but obviously it is impossible to do all the time. I believe buying products made in poorer countries does help the people, even though their wages might be far below ours, their living is still better than if they were not making the products at all.

Back to cars, I believe it is a myth about American cars being inferior at various times in the past. I am not claiming Toyotas or Hondas, etc. are not good cars, but I have always driven my cars to way over 100,000 miles with absolutely no trouble whatsoever, except for an occasional water pump, alternator, or something like that. My daughter had a toyota, the motor and tranny were indestructable, but the suspension was lousy, and constantly needed repair, because it was not built to drive on dirt roads like American cars were. I think many people are buying Toyota, etc. now, because it is trendy, and it is a generational thing with those cars being more popular. But GM, Ford, and Chrysler are building very fine automobiles, better than ever. Maybe I am just a diehard patriot, but I will continue to buy American.

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okie
Granted the quality of the American auto is better than it has ever been. However, we can thank the foreign imports for that. Prior to their appearance upon the scene the quality left much to be desired. My first new car was a 1955 Plymouth. Once it left the dealers showroom it was your problem, defects and all. And that car had plenty. I have owned seven, all purchased new, American brand cars and each except for the last one a Buick had quality problems. Believe me the poor quality American autos, in the past is no myth.

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"American made" is a myth in today's auto industry. Many Americans build foreign made cars in the US. GM and Toyota has a plant in Fremont, California, that builds both GM and Toyota automobiles.

Buy American? How ignorant!

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okie wrote:

Oh, thats right. You are the one that does not currently own a car, right?

That's right. Economical in the extreme. Saves my GF and I around 7-8k a year by not having one.

I have two bicycles and a trailer for my bike which carries a lot of weight. Conservatives talk a lot about 'personal responsibility' and how many on the Left lack that quality; I don't want to be that guy. I'm an environmentalist, so I'm taking responsibility for my own life and my impact on the world by choosing not to drive.

It means that it sometimes takes me an hour to get somewhere that would have been 30 minutes in a car, but you just adjust your schedule accordingly.

If an electric car was available, which had a low environmental impact creation cost, then I would consider buying one.

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I am the same with buying products. I look at where things are made, and if you can trust the labels, I try to buy U.S., but obviously it is impossible to do all the time. I believe buying products made in poorer countries does help the people, even though their wages might be far below ours, their living is still better than if they were not making the products at all.

I'm in the middle with the thought that you are really helping a country out by encouraging super-low wages, which just happen to be higher than the rest of the crappy wages they could make anywhere else. It does pump more money into their economy, but there are many factors to take into account such as working conditions, etc... I just try to buy American whenever I can, and it's not that tough if you put effort into it. I applaud my fellow Nativist shopper!

What more, I try to buy everything that I can, locally. I now know a metalsmith and a goldsmith; I know the farmers where half my fruits and vegetables come from; I met a carpenter the other day who is going to make me a nice bench for my GF. All this costs more than the cheap chinese stuff I could get, but I'll hand the quality items over to my grandkids, and keep my neighborhood alive at the same time. Win-win.

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Back to cars, I believe it is a myth about American cars being inferior at various times in the past. I am not claiming Toyotas or Hondas, etc. are not good cars, but I have always driven my cars to way over 100,000 miles with absolutely no trouble whatsoever, except for an occasional water pump, alternator, or something like that. My daughter had a toyota, the motor and tranny were indestructable, but the suspension was lousy, and constantly needed repair, because it was not built to drive on dirt roads like American cars were. I think many people are buying Toyota, etc. now, because it is trendy, and it is a generational thing with those cars being more popular. But GM, Ford, and Chrysler are building very fine automobiles, better than ever. Maybe I am just a diehard patriot, but I will continue to buy American.

It's a comparison thing; ALL cars are better than they used to be, nowadays, but how many are really reliable? Can take stresses reliably? I think that this is the major issue where the domestics have fallen behind, in reliability and overall length of live of vehicle.

Cycloptichorn

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cicerone imposter wrote:

"American made" is a myth in today's auto industry. Many Americans build foreign made cars in the US. GM and Toyota has a plant in Fremont, California, that builds both GM and Toyota automobiles.

Buy American? How ignorant!

I knew that, and I silently predicted to myself that you would not miss the opportunity to point that out. How ignorant of you to think I thought that. You should know better by now. I still consider the big 3 as original American companies. Parts are made in lots of places as well. I can't help it, cicerone. I still consider the big 3 as American as I can find.

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au1929 wrote:

okie
Granted the quality of the American auto is better than it has ever been. However, we can thank the foreign imports for that. Prior to their appearance upon the scene the quality left much to be desired. My first new car was a 1955 Plymouth. Once it left the dealers showroom it was your problem, defects and all. And that car had plenty. I have owned seven, all purchased new, American brand cars and each except for the last one a Buick had quality problems. Believe me the poor quality American autos, in the past is no myth.

Well, I can agree with you on plymouths. But it is interesting how everyone has different takes on the same cars. I have never had what I would consider a bad car, and they all have gotten progressively better. The first foreign cars back a few decades were junk in my opinion. Relatives that owned them could tell you the same.

I hope to be a hybrid or electric car owner before I kick the bucket.

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okie wrote: I still consider the big 3 as original American companies.

Just another ignorant statement in today's world economy.

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How about a peace treaty, cicerone?

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okie wrote:

I still consider the big 3 as American as I can find.

Interesting. okie, why do you consider e.g. DaimlerChrysler, with a majority of its shares being held by foreign shareholders and merely 16.5% by American shareholders, an American company?

If the fact that a Chrysler is being completely assembled in an American plant would make it an "American car", wouldn't the same be true for e.g. a BMW, completely built and assembled in the United States by American workers?

Or is it just a nostalgic thing (name/brand recognition etc.)?

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It is largely nostalgic, I admit. It is impossible to buy anything totally made in America, and probably unrealistic, I realize. Actually, I don't favor Chrysler products anyway. I have driven mostly Chevys and Fords.

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okie wrote:

It is largely nostalgic, I admit. It is impossible to buy anything totally made in America, and probably unrealistic, I realize. Actually, I don't favor Chrysler products anyway. I have driven mostly Chevys and Fords.

Well, I do think that it's possible to buy many things that are entirely made in America. I just think that when it comes to cars, it's really difficult to talk about "national" brands.

I'm still amazed at the fact that a simple logo or name are sufficient to convince many people that they are indeed buying an American/British/German/whatever car.

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Where is the US economy headed?

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