Where is the US economy headed?

@okie,

Okie- do you think all this weaving of the winds might be to buy time while all the ill-gotten gains are spirited away out of reach. There's a bit of a witch-hunt building up here.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

We had deficits of 800-900 billion EVERY YEAR under Bush

NO, JOHNBOY, NO. Don't open that Pandora's box of statistics. Because we all know that while statistics don't lie, statisticians do.
Here are some numbers re U.S. Federal government deficits (1st column) and the increase in the national debt (2nd column. The source is Wikepedia which in turns links to other sources.

2001: 150B 170B
2002: 180B 410B
2003: 390B 580B
2004: 410B 600B
2005: 310B 550B
2006: 230B 590B
2007: 180B

1 Reply

@realjohnboy,

Haha, if you include the money we jack from SS each year, the deficits are indeed that large.

Of course, Clinton did it too! So it's okay. I guess.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

We had deficits of 800-900 billion EVERY YEAR under Bush

NO, JOHNBOY, NO. Don't open that Pandora's box of statistics. Because we all know that while statistics don't lie, statisticians do.
Here are some numbers re U.S. Federal government deficits (1st column) and the increase in the national debt (2nd column. The source is Wikepedia which in turns links to other sources.

2001: 150B 170B
2002: 180B 410B
2003: 390B 580B
2004: 410B 600B
2005: 310B 550B
2006: 230B 590B
2007: 180B 500B
2008: 430B 1000B

(I think, but am not sure, that the 1st column (deficit) is inflation adjusted while the 2nd column (increase in debt) is in current dollars. I may be wrong).
The disparity between the numbers in Column 1 and 2 is because there was a lot of stuff that was "out of the ordinary" and should not be included; like the wars in Iraq and Afghan.
The personal analogy would be that you have annual income of x and have expenses of a, b and c for food. gas, clothes etc. And you would have no deficit if those things are in balance. The emergency root canal surgery was not expected and, you argue, shouldn't be added to your budget deficit. The fact that you are deeper in debt...
Enough for tonight.
-rjb-

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@Cycloptichorn,

So your own stats dont back up your claim, now you are adding something else to try and make it look like you were correct.

That sure seems like the same thing you constantly (and rightfully) lambast Foxie for.

Admit that you were mistaken and move on.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

So your own stats dont back up your claim, now you are adding something else to try and make it look like you were correct.

That sure seems like the same thing you constantly (and rightfully) lambast Foxie for.

Admit that you were mistaken and move on.

Can you link to where I provided statistics?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Sorry, rjb posted the stats, not you.

But those stats dont back up your claim about the deficit every year under Bush.
So, you added more numbers (the SS) to try and reach your claim.
Again, you lambast Foxie for doing that exact same thing, so why are you now doing it?

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Sorry, rjb posted the stats, not you.

But those stats dont back up your claim about the deficit every year under Bush.
So, you added more numbers (the SS) to try and reach your claim.
Again, you lambast Foxie for doing that exact same thing, so why are you now doing it?

You can't blame me b/c RJB posted stats which didn't include elements of the actual budget!

He could have posted the budgets without the Iraq and Afg. wars in them; if I pointed out they should have been in there, would you be bitching similarly?

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Here was your claim...

Quote:

We had deficits of 800-900 billion EVERY YEAR under Bush

Now, that isnt supported by the facts.
Instead of saying you were wrong, you are sounding like Foxie and saying its not your fault that you were wrong.

So, you shouldnt say anything to Foxie when you do the exact same thing, should you?

2 Replies

@mysteryman,

Here are the stats from Wiki:

Quote:

United States Total Debt (Split)
End of fiscal year Intragovernmental Holdings Debt Held by the Public

2000.......... ..... 2.269 trillion............... 3.405 trillion
2001................ 2.468 trillion................. 3.339 trillion
2002................ 2.675 trillion ............... 3.553 trillion
2003................ 2.859 trillion............... 3.924 trillion
2004................ 3.072 trillion............... 4.307 trillion
2005................ 3.331 trillion................ 4.601 trillion
2006................ 3.664 trillion............... 4.843 trillion
2007................ 3.958 trillion............... 5.049 trillion
2008................ 4.216 trillion............... 5.809 trillion
2009* est......... 5.900 trillion............... 6.400 trillion

0 Replies

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Here was your claim...

Quote:
We had deficits of 800-900 billion EVERY YEAR under Bush

Now, that isnt supported by the facts.
Instead of saying you were wrong, you are sounding like Foxie and saying its not your fault that you were wrong.

So, you shouldnt say anything to Foxie when you do the exact same thing, should you?

I suppose you are right that in fiscal year 2o01 we didn't carry those deficits. But every other year we did, thanks to various wars and problems.

Who said it wasn't supported by the facts? Do you realize how much money we jack from SS every year to make the budgets look better?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Who said it wasn't supported by the facts? Do you realize how much money we jack from SS every year to make the budgets look better?

Thats been going on almost since SS was created.
Washington considers the SS fund its own private piggy bank.

Why are you only now concerned about how it affects the budget?

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Who said it wasn't supported by the facts? Do you realize how much money we jack from SS every year to make the budgets look better?

Thats been going on almost since SS was created.
Washington considers the SS fund its own private piggy bank.

Why are you only now concerned about how it affects the budget?

Actually it's only been going on since 1968. But it has been going on a long time.

I am not only now concerned about this; my freshman year of college, I wrote a paper on how wrong it was for Clinton to be doing exactly this, and how it essentially amounts to lying to the American public.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You can't blame me b/c RJB posted stats which didn't include elements of the actual budget!

He could have posted the budgets without the Iraq and Afg. wars in them; if I pointed out they should have been in there, would you be bitching similarly?

Cycloptichorn

Look at my post again. Column 1 is the reported deficit excluding Iraq and Afghan. Column 2 is the increase in national debt including, presumably, all off budget items, such as Iraq and Afghan.

1 Reply

@realjohnboy,

realjohnboy wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You can't blame me b/c RJB posted stats which didn't include elements of the actual budget!

He could have posted the budgets without the Iraq and Afg. wars in them; if I pointed out they should have been in there, would you be bitching similarly?

Cycloptichorn

Look at my post again. Column 1 is the reported deficit excluding Iraq and Afghan. Column 2 is the increase in national debt including, presumably, all off budget items, such as Iraq and Afghan.

No, I know you did post them, rjb. But I wonder if those posts include the amount of money we take from SS each year.

Gah, this is confusing... that's why I like Obama's pledge to stop having ANYTHING off budget!!

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

Okay. It is indeed confusing, Cyclop. Taking it one or two steps forward. I hope that yall will agree that the numbers in column 1 above are pretty meaningless because of what is not included. Column 2 is closer to the truth, but there are some flaws.
Go back to the family that had a balanced budget but then there was the root canal thing, which they considered as "extra-ordinary." They could still report a balanced budget but they are $500 in debt to the dentist.
They break open their kid's piggy bank and find $100. They put in an IOU and put the other $400 on a credit card. The family debt is still $500. A few months later they look in the piggy bank again and there is another $100. Another IOU and the $400 gets paid down a bit. Still $500 total. Eventually the kid needs the money but, oops, there is nothing but IOU's.
The piggy bank for numerous administrations has been the Social Security Trust Fund. They tossed in IOU's to take the money out that the baby-boomers and later workers paid in.
The raiding did not affect the deficits or increases in national debt, but now that us old farts are retiring we are finding that the piggy bank is filled with lots and lots of IOU's. The government is going to have to find someone to buy those IOU's so we get our benefits. If they can't they will have to raise taxes or reduce expenditures to come up with the money. Lots of money.
-rjb-

2 Replies

@realjohnboy,

Hmmm, I wonder if thats where Bernie Madoff got his idea?

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Gah, this is confusing... that's why I like Obama's pledge to stop having ANYTHING off budget!!

Cycloptichorn

What makes you believe he keeps pledges?

1 Reply

@realjohnboy,

I'm picturing a piggy bank with handfulls of scraps with I O U scribbled on them, but aren't we really talking about treasury issues? People with money seem to like them well enough to accept an essentially zero rate of return.

0 Replies

@okie,

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Gah, this is confusing... that's why I like Obama's pledge to stop having ANYTHING off budget!!

Cycloptichorn

What makes you believe he keeps pledges?

The budget he released includes costs for Iraq and Afghanistan, which is what he said he would do way back in the primaries. He's already keeping his pledges on this issue.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

Where is the US economy headed?

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