114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 05:48 pm
@spendius,
Any "handicap" is not necessarily a doom.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 08:33 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate, the attack on Rush is nothing more than an attempt to isolate, then destroy key conservative pundits, thus marginalizing and destroying conservatism and the Republican party. That is Obama's game plan as a leftie, nothing new, Clinton tried to blame everything on Rush as well.

There is one major problem with that, central planning / liberal policies don't work longterm. If enough people are fooled, it could take the country on a very torturesome path and cause alot of suffering before it is over, however. I don't know if this is a one term sideshow before the people wake up again, or if it is truly a leftward and downward trend for the next few decades? With the godlike status of Obama, it is not going to be easy to reverse, especially with the mainstream media in Obama's pocket. Obama would love nothing better than to take conservatives off the air, or at least declaw them or neutralize them greatly, at least both radio and television, and I look for some angle to attempt this during his tenure. It will be a battle of freedom of speech, that I will predict.

Make no mistake, for every Rush Limbaugh, there are plenty of Rush replacements. Just because Obama won an election, it is clearly not a mandate, no way, we are not going away easily, and the force of logical good government is on our side. But one thing nags me. As Eisenhower said, freedom requires personal responsibility to maintain, and I see that falling apart in this country. It is epitomized by the IRS now run by a tax evader, and nobody cares, especially the fraud, Obama.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 09:02 pm
@okie,
You would fit the bill very well; I mean as a replacement for Rush.

The current destructive path was sustained during Bush's eight years in office. I won't give Bill Clinton a pass, but you must realize that the latest man responsible for this country was Bush - not Clinton. Bush had plenty of time to try to fix many of the problems that became exposed to the light of day during those eight years, but his laissez faire beliefs made him believe everything was hunky dory. As recent as last summer, both he and McCain told Americans that "our economy is fundamentally strong." If Clinton screwed up so much, why did they make such a statement? We can rack it up to incompetence.

You have learned nothing, and all you spew are ignorance.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 09:18 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Bush had plenty of time to try to fix many of the problems that became exposed to the light of day during those eight years, but his laissez faire beliefs made him believe everything was hunky dory. As recent as last summer, both he and McCain told Americans that "our economy is fundamentally strong." If Clinton screwed up so much, why did they make such a statement? We can rack it up to incompetence.



bush deserves a lot a blame, but what about congress? what about the professional economists in academia? What about the international financial organizations? what about corporate America? what about the voters who only cared about what was in it for them and for partisan political games???

we are all guilty.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 09:28 pm
@hawkeye10,
The conservatives controlled congress for six years, and used the filibuster to stop most legislation from being passed. That doesn't exonerate the democrats by any means, but quit trying to blame Clinton for everything Bush failed to do.

Bush was not a "listener." If he had any brains, he would have fired all the incompetents he took in many agencies, and replaced them with what could have been the "cream of the crop" in academia and people with the right kind of experience.

He didn't.

Anyone who disagreed with his myopia got fired or was forced to retire.
That was his MO, and everybody became "yes" men/women for fear of their jobs.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 09:38 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You would fit the bill very well; I mean as a replacement for Rush.

The current destructive path was sustained during Bush's eight years in office. I won't give Bill Clinton a pass, but you must realize that the latest man responsible for this country was Bush - not Clinton. Bush had plenty of time to try to fix many of the problems that became exposed to the light of day during those eight years, but his laissez faire beliefs made him believe everything was hunky dory. As recent as last summer, both he and McCain told Americans that "our economy is fundamentally strong." If Clinton screwed up so much, why did they make such a statement? We can rack it up to incompetence.

You have learned nothing, and all you spew are ignorance.

I am not holding Bush blameless, but at least Bush, McCain, and other Republicans recognized a problem with Fannie and Freddie and tried to put into place more oversight, but no, congress obstructed, more specifically Barney Frank and Dodd, they said there was not a problem and Bush only wanted control of their little social engineering playthings, better known as Fannie and Freddie.

ci, your partisanship is getting worse, so bad in fact that you are blind to the blatant incompetence and blatant corruption of your party. Approval for Bush was low, but Congress has been even worse. And Obama's approval has dropped 15 points already, because people are starting to see his incompetence, and the trend will continue down, unless the media can prop him up.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17902.html
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 10:23 pm
@okie,
When are you going to get it through your pitiful brain that the current problem isn't isolated to Fannie and Freddie?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 10:34 pm
@cicerone imposter,
This is why Obama must succeed:

Quote:
LA man upset over job kills wife, 5 kids, himself
A man fatally shot his wife, five young children and himself Tuesday after he faxed a note to a TV station claiming the couple had just been fired from their hospital jobs and together planned the killings as an escape for the whole family. "Why leave our children in someone else's hands," Ervin Lupoe wrote in a letter posted late Tuesday on the KABC-TV Web site.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 10:37 pm
@okie,
I am a registered "Independent." It's not "my" party; the US presidency represents the whole country. Shocking, isn't it?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 07:23 am
Ref my post 3,549,826 on page 243 which seems to have been ignored-

Quote:
What Was The Glass-Steagall Act?
by Reem Heakal (Contact Author | Biography)
Story Tools
Email ArticlePrint ArticleCommentsRSSIn 1933, in the wake of the 1929 stock market crash and during a nationwide commercial bank failure and the Great Depression, two members of Congress put their names on what is known today as the Glass-Steagall Act (GSA). This act separated investment and commercial banking activities. At the time, "improper banking activity", or what was considered overzealous commercial bank involvement in stock market investment, was deemed the main culprit of the financial crash. According to that reasoning, commercial banks took on too much risk with depositors' money. Additional and sometimes non-related explanations for the Great Depression evolved over the years, and many questioned whether the GSA hindered the establishment of financial services firms that can equally compete against each other. We will take a look at why the GSA was established and what led to its final repeal in 1999.

Reasons for the Act - Commercial Speculation
Commercial banks were accused of being too speculative in the pre-Depression era, not only because they were investing their assets but also because they were buying new issues for resale to the public. Thus, banks became greedy, taking on huge risks in the hope of even bigger rewards. Banking itself became sloppy and objectives became blurred. Unsound loans were issued to companies in which the bank had invested, and clients would be encouraged to invest in those same stocks.

Effects of the Act - Creating Barriers
Senator Carter Glass, a former Treasury secretary and the founder of the U.S. Federal Reserve System, was the primary force behind the GSA. Henry Bascom Steagall was a House of Representatives member and chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee. Steagall agreed to support the act with Glass after an amendment was added permitting bank deposit insurance (this was the first time it was allowed).

As a collective reaction to one of the worst financial crises at the time, the GSA set up a regulatory firewall between commercial and investment bank activities, both of which were curbed and controlled. Banks were given a year to decide on whether they would specialize in commercial or in investment banking. Only 10% of commercial banks' total income could stem from securities; however, an exception allowed commercial banks to underwrite government-issued bonds. Financial giants at the time such as JP Morgan and Company, which were seen as part of the problem, were directly targeted and forced to cut their services and, hence, a main source of their income. By creating this barrier, the GSA was aiming to prevent the banks' use of deposits in the case of a failed underwriting job.

The GSA, however, was considered harsh by most in the financial community, and it was reported that even Glass himself moved to repeal the GSA shortly after it was passed, claiming it was an overreaction to the crisis.

Building More Walls
Despite the lax implementation of the GSA by the Federal Reserve Board, which is the regulator of U.S. banks, in 1956, Congress made another decision to regulate the banking sector. In an effort to prevent financial conglomerates from amassing too much power, the new act focused on banks involved in the insurance sector. Congress agreed that bearing the high risks undertaken in underwriting insurance is not good banking practice. Thus, as an extension of the Glass-Steagall Act, the Bank Holding Company Act further separated financial activities by creating a wall between insurance and banking. Even though banks could, and can still can, sell insurance and insurance products, underwriting insurance was forbidden.

Were the Walls Necessary? - The New Rules of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act
The limitations of the GSA on the banking sector sparked a debate over how much restriction is healthy for the industry. Many argued that allowing banks to diversify in moderation offers the banking industry the potential to reduce risk, so the restrictions of the GSA could have actually had an adverse effect, making the banking industry riskier rather than safer. Furthermore, big banks of the post-Enron market are likely to be more transparent, lessening the possibility of assuming too much risk or masking unsound investment decisions. As such, reputation has come to mean everything in today's market, and that could be enough to motivate banks to regulate themselves.

Consequently, to the delight of many in the banking industry (not everyone, however, was happy), in November of 1999 Congress repealed the GSA with the establishment of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which eliminated the GSA restrictions against affiliations between commercial and investment banks. Furthermore, the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act allows banking institutions to provide a broader range of services, including underwriting and other dealing activities.

Conclusion
Although the barrier between commercial and investment banking aimed to prevent a loss of deposits in the event of investment failures, the reasons for the repeal of the GSA and the establishment of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act show that even regulatory attempts for safety can have adverse effects.


The 1999 Congress.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 10:44 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

When are you going to get it through your pitiful brain that the current problem isn't isolated to Fannie and Freddie?

I have never claimed it was isolated to Fannie and Freddie, but I have claimed it was a piece of the puzzle, an important one the Democrats love to totally ign0re. You also must realize the culture of irresponsibility with Fannie and Freddie also affected all of the housing market, that being my opinion.

Its better to have a pitiful brain than a liberal brainwashed brain.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 10:50 am
We just heard Obama speak, pushing his stimulus package, and after the introduction of slobbering over the messiah, Obama proceeded to give a very dull, uninspired, no heart, no passion, short speech pushing his recovery plan, no details, nothing, it was a loser. Some of his statements were reaganesque, probably the reason he was uninspired because although he said business, not government, is the engine to prosperity, he probably doesn't believe it. Then he contradicted that platitude by pushing government spending to bring prosperity.

He mentioned transparency and accountability, not doling out money in secrecy in Washington, now that will be a surprise. And I guess accountability starts by placing a tax cheater to head the IRS?

Unbelievable. I hope every last Republican votes against this one gigantic piece of pork. Oh, he said businesses cut jobs to stay afloat, but I guess government spends more to stay afloat?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 10:50 am
@okie,
okie wrote:
Quote:
I have never claimed it was isolated to Fannie and Freddie, but I have claimed it was a piece of the puzzle, an important one the Democrats love to totally ign0re. You also must realize the culture of irresponsibility with Fannie and Freddie also affected all of the housing market, that being my opinion.


Your so-called opinion requires more evidence; you just can't make a statement without it being supported by the facts and dynamics that brought our financial system to its knees. Show us how "the culture of irresponsibility with Fannie and Freddie affected all of the housing market?" You understand the word "evidence" don't you?

I'm hoping you'll give it some thought that expands your understanding of the macro-economic system of finance, and how "all" the players were responsible for where we are at today, and the reason banks around the world were also affected.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 11:09 am
@cicerone imposter,
If government encourages and backs up loans to people that would otherwise not qualify according to sound business practice if not encouraged by government, then you inject a force not subject to market forces, just common sense, it will affect it. This site seems to present both sides, again partisan Krugman claims it didn't affect it much but the data presented says otherwise in my opinion, as some other opinions hold. Common sense, try it, ci.

http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2008/07/did_fannie_and.html

I pick out one paragraph:
"Fannie and Freddie had purchased $4.9 trillion of the mortgages outstanding as of the end of 2007, 70% of which the GSEs had packaged and sold to investors with a guarantee of payment, and the remainder of which Fannie and Freddie kept for their own portfolios. The fraction of outstanding home mortgage debt that was either held or guaranteed by the GSEs (known as their "total book of business") rose from 6% in 1971 to 51% in 2003. Book of business relative to annual GDP went from 1.6% to 33%."

I believe the runup of prices from the 70's, when I bought my first house, ci, until now, I believe the stake and influence that Fannie and Freddie gained in the market undoubtedly affected prices. This problem did not appear out of thin air in the last couple of years, it is has been brewing for a long time. This is simple common sense. If you have a guy out there subsidizing the buying 50% of the cars in this country that is not constrained by sound loan practice, it will affect the price of automobiles, and the ability of people to pay for them, and it will affect how normal loan companies begin to structure their loans for cars.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 11:14 am
@okie,
You still pushing this tired ****?

It wasn't the loans, it was the fact that the loans were bought up by banks, insurance companies, and financial companies as collaterlaized assets, Okie. This was illegal before Gramm got the Glass-seagall act repealed in 1999. This is why this housing bust - which is not that much worse than normal housing busts - brought everything down. You're blaming the wrong people.

And it's easy to see why: it was Republicans who have been running the show for the last 8 years, and your group screwed up. Very little oversight, nothing was done, nobody was minding the store at the SEC or the FED. Those who warned this was going to happen were ignored, while your pundits and politicians were busy crowing about the success of the Bush Economy.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 11:14 am
@okie,
okie, You still miss the point; you mention the percentage of homes purchased through Fannie and Freddie, but you fail to show what percentage of those sales were actually based on unqualified sales. Try again.

Also try to look at why those unqualified sales were made: it was much more than your myopic view of this current crisis.

Try looking at what banks did with those mortgage instruments that continued to show a "profit."





0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 11:23 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclops, I have not claimed other factors did not play a part. If you can quote me as saying so, great, give it a try. I agree the SEC dropped the ball, big time.

And for you to claim that loans made by one sector did not affect other sectors, I don't believe it, the housing market is all connected.

You wish to blame it all on Republicans, not true, both are to blame.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 11:28 am
@okie,
So are the people who sold those properties, and all the banks and finance companies that traded those instruments.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 11:36 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cyclops, I have not claimed other factors did not play a part. If you can quote me as saying so, great, give it a try. I agree the SEC dropped the ball, big time.


I haven't seen you bitching about how the Bush admin didn't do their job. At all. So you may not have claimed that other factors didn't play a part, but you are effectively trying to pin this on the Democrats and programs designed to help folks get homes.

Quote:
And for you to claim that loans made by one sector did not affect other sectors, I don't believe it, the housing market is all connected.


I don't know what this means. What are you trying to say?

Quote:
You wish to blame it all on Republicans, not true, both are to blame.


I don't wish to blame it all on Republicans; I mostly blame the financial analysts who knew this was going to happen, and did nothing to stop it, while taking home huge paychecks for themselves. Of course, the Republicans laid the foundations for the problem to happen and were on watch while it happened, and did nothing to stop it - even denying that any problem existed for as long as possible.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 11:37 am
@cicerone imposter,
I agree, but again, what would happen if we created a Fannie and Freddie to subsidize loans for automobiles, ci? What do you think would happen to the industry? And what if the government said every citizen should be able to buy a new car, and then create special rules making the loan companies make it happen? Would you with a straight face tell me the price of cars would not be affected at all? I think it would not only affect the loans handled by the government, but it would affect all loans.

Another example, what if we ended student loans for going to colleges and universities, would that affect tuition and the financial health of that industry? Sure it would.
 

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